September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Violet I've found over the years that Attila has excellent advice and suggestions. We are all different and for me,I couldn't really change other relationships and dynamics with colleagues etc until I fully understood them through counselling. This mightnt be the same for everyone though obviously

Article in the Grauniad this weekend about "How to reconcile after a family rift".

It seems to come from the angle of people who want to reconcile, rather than those of us who have absolutely no intention of ever going back.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/feb/20/how-to-reconcile-after-a-family-rift

Sicario, I agree the article is very much written from the angle of someone who has been cut off, estrangement is framed as a problem which requires a solution... whereas in my mind it is a solution to the problem of a toxic person in your life!
It seems to be imply that one does not have the right to walk away from a relationship, that it's perfectly fine for the person who has been cut out to continue to pursue and harass you, to not take no for an answer 🙈😱
(Or perhaps I'm being over sensitive 😶)

No you're not, I read it that way too. I think it could be quite damaging for the SG who have been bought up to think they have to fix everything.

I haven't read the book, although I will have a look before commenting more. But this thing about "healing rifts" really smacks to me like an entry-level (and poor) attempt to understand the depth of the rabbit hole.

I am not going to say anything about it being written by a man.

I do thing that women have a whole different heap of shit to content with, and that many of us have thrown in the towel with the man view of "female duty" and expectations in the family dynamic.

In other news...

MAJOR FLYING MONKEYS ALERT

Emails and other shit being sent to my DH and (adult) DCs. The flying monkey is a SIL with the "we don't understand what's happened blah blah blah".

DH only told me today, having deleted emails and texts, saying he thought about it for a week or two before mentioning it, and had decided just ignore and delete. Then gave me a hug and says he totally understands why I've gone NC with all of them.

It's so shit. And with mothers day coming up I will send flowers to the mother because I'm damned if I do and I'm damned if I don't and it will make no difference. Good advice from a previous poster about arranging it in advance with an innocuous note then it's done and you don't have to think about it any more.

I'm just ranting now. If I could send one message to all my siblings and the mother it would be JUST LEAVE ME ALONE.

Update... it's an American audio book... all about rifts and reconciliation.. and has clearly never got anywhere near the Stately Homes situation.

Can I join in? It's about 12 months since I posted here. Have had a difficult time with dparents over the years. A lot if criticism and controlling behaviour. I pulled away for a long time when it all got too much. Things have got better. But I know mainly its for contact with gchildren. No one really contacts me and my brother lives 20 mins away and doesn't know where I live. So we are not close. Dm has depression and other illnesses but lies in bed most days getting angry about life and mocking and giving about about anything and everyone.

If I visit with a gift and lean in to her she says 'ughh. Your hair is so dark it does nothing for you' I know that sounds minor but it's very small on top of all. My graduation day she took an attack of pain that meant ddad spent the day looking after her and my hen she ended in A&E.
When I needed a csection she said she told everyone I was too posh to push. She often told people I was boring and had no friends yet when I brought friends around she said they took over the place. Its so hard to explain.

I called 4 times today and she's too busy to answer. Yet last week was the same and then she rang at the weekend what was wrong with me she hadn't heard from me.
I cant go no contact again but I had a very bad day. I would just love a mum that loves me. Maybe told me something nice once in a while. When I told one of my siblings I felt criticised all the time he told me to grow up and sent her the text I sent. So I have no real siblings to trust. Its so sad. She gives out everyday about his wife and he doesn't know. Her friends love her but she bad mouths them constantly.
What can I do?

Hi @Woodlandbelle, it's unlikely she will change, your mother is too consumed with her own stuff to give you anything, she sounds like the bad-tempered and bitter spider at the centre of a dysfunctional toxic web
maybe she has good reason to be so ill-tempered but it's not your fault and you deserve better, please try and separate yourself from them as much as you can otherwise the miserable and dysfunctional bucket of crabs will just drag you back in

Name changed as I've been putting far too much outing info on other threads.

So we are at almost a year NC with M.

Kids suddenly asking today why they can't see her. They are all primary school age.

I've just said that she's mean sometimes and doesn't accept that she's being mean so we can't see her. It's not gone down well. Any tips?

She messaged in January asking if "you are ready to have an adult conversation"....

Having threatened me with court, and when I agreed to mediation and set out my concerns she threw her toys out of the pram and stopped speaking to me.

I think not. She's got a full explanation of the problem if she wants to address it.

Hi @Woodlandbelle, she's just lashing out the way a toddler would and putting you in the parent role to fix. Thing is though, you'll never be able to, nor should you. It's not your job.
She's making an active choice to use you as a scapegoat as she can be nice to her friends. You can't win no matter what you do and your sibs will throw you under the bus to keep in favour - see the boat analogy further up. The only thing you do have agency over is how much or little you choose to engage with it all.

Thank you purple and ulter.
The boat analogy is so spot on. Probably the best I've read..
The parental home I grew up in went from one crisis to another. Now, in retirement its still as much in crisis mode. Every day there is some big thing going on / drama. I'm so tired of it. Also my parents have told everyone how bad I am (all their neighbours and my aunts and uncles). When I pulled away last time my dfather made a sign to his head to say I was gone mad in the head. Mum says i must be ill too. I am 100 percent fine. They say they are worried about me. I just got angry for all the blame and took a few quiet weeks to myself.
She constantly remarks on how her friends have good daughters and dfather says they are like people who don't have one.

WoodlandBelle

Toddlers grow up and your mother is very much a child in an adult's body. Her emotional development stopped at around the age of six.

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles; yours here appears to be one of scapegoat with your brother being the more favoured golden child. His role also is one not without price either but he remains unaware of that. Sounds like you have a narcissist for a mother; what you describe is absolutely typical behaviour from such disordered of thinking people. She has made the terrible choice not to love. Women like your mother cannot do relationships so need a willing enabler to help them, that person is your dad. You cannot rely upon him and he has also failed you.

Its not your fault they are like this and you did not make them that way.
Its really not possible to have a relationship with someone like your parents. I would urge you to further lower current levels of contact; it was likely utter crap for you growing up in your house and these people have not and will not change. Do not further keep on exposing yourself, let alone their grandchildren, to these serial abusers.

What if anything do you know about your mother's childhood; that often gives clues. Chances are she is meting out the same as what was done to her. Abusive people are depressed because they are angry, not because they are depressed.

Controlling behaviours come from a place of abuse and abuse is about power and control. Your mother wants absolute here. And as for she having friends, she really does not. She uses people and her so called friends are easily manipulated flying monkeys who are also not interested in hearing your side of things.

Thank You Atilla. My dm was born at a time of poverty and then left alone when her parents died. I know her older brothers hit them and she is no contact or low contact with some of them. She had no education and at the moment is in bed most days with a huge screen TV. Had lived off benefits but spends the money foolishly. My last birthday she bought cheap bubble bath for me saying it will probably make me come out in a rash. Nothing for christmas. But expects very expensive branded gifts herself. I don't want any presents but the occasional nice comment or support.

Sometimes she says I am a good mother and has hinted she wasn't but it was a different time and she wasn't shown anything the right way.

Years ago my father encouraged me to apply to uni 3 hours away and get away from it all. I did and did very well. But then he cried when he knew I wasn't coming back and asked me to leave. I went on to get an MSc and several other qualifications but they never ask about my work or acknowledge anything I did. She only mentions minor things (own brand biscuits when I give her tea or she does like my rug or why are dc bit wearing a white vest)

It's so hard to explain but it chips away at me everyday.

Also on my wedding day they said one thing about me and dh (in dad's speech) continued to thank friends and then went on to wish her friend a happy birthday. When I went to collect my dress she brought a friend along and was all 'oh we have to look for shoes for Jane.. Have you any money you can lend Jane'
Not a f**k does she give about me. If I had a daughter I would be so proud.

Sunshine

You need to fully block your mother from being able to contact you. No contact is precisely that. One good thing here is that she is no longer speaking to you (for now anyway or until she wants something of or from you); that saves you the job of cutting her off.

Threats of court are as well a means to try and intimidate you, I believe she would have to prove to the court that a relationship is and would be beneficial to the children.

Was wondering why you offered mediation. Its no point whatsoever doing this with someone disordered of thinking. You are far away from being at all emotionally safe enough to undergo that with her and besides which mediation or other joint counselling is never recommended when the other party is abusive. Your mother is and remains abusive.

Re your children you are the parent. You get to make these decisions without apology or excessive justification. You can assure your children that you are making a wise and loving decision for them as well as yourself. I am not going to script what you should say because you are the only one who knows your children, but you must convey that this isn't up for negotiation. This is not a decision that the children gets to make. Yes, children usually love their grandparents. Children are often quite indiscriminate in their love which is why they need parents to guide them. Not every person is safe to have around and this is a good time to teach that important life lesson. The more matter-of-fact you are, the more matter-of-fact your children will be. When we act hysterical, they will usually reflect our hysteria. If you act anxious, they will act anxious. If you appear unsure, they will push. Model the reaction and attitude you want your children to adopt.

If you have another set of grandparents in the picture then focus on them. It is rare that both sets of grandparents are nasty. Emphasize to your children how much we enjoy being around grandma and grandpa so-and-so (the decent and loving grandparents). Cultivate your children's relationship with the decent, loving grandparents. Teach your children to be grateful for the decent, loving grandparents. Gratitude is a highly effective antidote to loss. Focus them on what they have, not what they don't have. Model that attitude of gratitude.

You will find that the children will eventually stop mentioning the loss of the narcissist grandparent if you are not bringing it up. If you are talking about your Nparent in the hearing of your children then you are inviting them to keep talking about it, too. I can not over-emphasize the need for your explanation to a younger child to be calm, pragmatic, measured and short. Long explanations make you look defensive which will tend to peak the interest of the child and prompt him to push the issue. You can gauge what is appropriate information depending on the age of the child. If the child is older and has experienced or witnessed the N grandparent's nastiness in action then you can say more.

WoodlandBelle

Many people have rubbish and or otherwise crap childhoods and yet they choose not to abuse their children when they become parents themselves.

Your mother had a choice when it came to her children and she chose the same old abuse that was done to her by her family members.

Was not sadly all that surprised about the presents you received; narcissists are truly crap gift givers. Narcissists totally lack empathy, so they don't know what you want or like and, evidently, they don't care either; second, they think their opinions are better and more important than anyone else's, so they'll give you what they think you ought to want, regardless of what you may have said when asked what you wanted for your birthday; third, they're stingy and will give as gifts stuff that's just lying around their house, such as possessions that they no longer have any use for, or in really choice instances return to you something that was yours in the first place. In fact, as a practical matter, the surest way NOT to get what you want from a narcissist is to ask for it as your chances are better if you just keep quiet, because every now and then the narcissist will hit on the right thing by random accident.

Your dad to his credit did encourage you to get away from home but when it finally dawned on him that you would be no longer around to act as some sort of buffer between his wife and he, he turned on you. He is still very much a weak bystander of a man and he gets what he wants out the codependent dysfunctional relationship he has with his wife.

Sicario

Sorry to read about the flying monkey SIL: your DH was wise indeed to ignore and delete her witterings. Your SIL has no interest in hearing your side of things and has her own agenda so her opinion should be ignored.

I would not actually bother sending flowers for Mothers Day either; she was no decent example of a mother to you. You're only doing that probably out of still feeling obligated (all part of the FOG) and perhaps to a lesser extent societal convention. No contact is precisely this, it is no contact of any sort. Sending flowers can also invite a response and you really do not want to reopen that can of worms.

I know you're right @AttilaTheMeerkat - I just want it to stop. Every time some kind of communication sneaks through it just churns it all up again. This particular SIL is thick as shit, zero emotional intelligence, and all the subtlety of a brick coming through your window. She has no concept of boundaries. The brother she is married to lives abroad and is a hopeless alcoholic, also a vile racist, but too thick to realise how disgusting his behaviour is. They deserve each other.

I also hear you about mother's day. That's hard because if I send nothing it will cause her hurt and upset, which by turn will fuel the flames of my nightmare sister. Her husband is her enabler. It's so fucked up.

It's clear that I'm still being talked about three years after I brought the shutters down. I do wish they would all just fuck off.

Haven’t been on this thread but it popped up and I read the article from Guardian.
What a load of tosh.

I’d agree that it’s written from the point of somebody who has been cut off but the points at the end just prompted me to reply here.

Think about what was your role in estrangement and try to look at it from their point of view.
Don’t expect them to see your point.

Well. That brings me up exactly where,when and why the estrangement started,doesn’t it? I do understand what the author was trying to say but what’s the point in ending the “rift” as they call it if they are never going to see or admit the treatment they dished out and stop it?

I was NC with my father- he called me years ago to express his wish for me to stay away. I know it was driven by his partner. It hurt like hell at the time,we met a couple of times at family funerals,his partner never shown her face at them.
He died last year. Was I upset he died without reconnecting? To start with yes but I accepted it was his decision and I’m not as I couldn’t have changed it.

We are NC with FIL and his wife. Not only my husband was a scapegoat and our family as an extension but we decided to cut contact after they made it clear all of us (including FIL’s only biological DGC) were at the end of their pecking order.
The end came when my DH was yet again told to put his feelings on side to appease somebody whose actions years ago might have left him in big financial troubles.

To hell with ending a rift. It serves no purpose and reconciliation wouldn’t add anything emotionally valuable to our life.

We’re done.

@FrenchBoule - bloody exactly. What's the point? There is no reasoning with unreasonable people. My sister has a filthy temper and has no idea how awful her behaviour can be, or the hurt she has caused. She believes she is always right, and that it's everybody else who is in the wrong.

I think the biggest upset is that the family scapegoat (me) has now gone. I was the punchbag for mother, my brothers, and finally my sister (who is quite a bit younger than me). And like a mug I took it for years until the straw that broke the camel's back.

It's very hard to navigate when you've been conditioned to accept all the shit that's thrown at you. That article was breathtakingly uninformed and so wide of the mark.

The end came when my DH was yet again told to put his feelings on side to appease somebody whose actions years ago might have left him in big financial troubles
Sounds like the old 'don't rock the boat' thing doesn't it🙈
the old 'put aside your personal feelings so that the extended family unit can save face and those at the head of it it can look like saints' thing
Do they really not realise that the most obvious solution is to just say 'I do not want to be in this boat anymore' ... 'sayonara dudes have fun in that boat, I'm off to live my life rowing away in my own boat🚣‍♀️
quickly wave me off before I disappear over the horizon, oh you were too busy grumpy and bitching at each other, nevermind' 🚣‍♀️🚣‍♀️🚣‍♀️🚣‍♀️🚣‍♀️

Thanks for understanding.

I’m sick of hearing “you only have one father”.Good parent doesn’t treat their kids like this.

Why somebody’s feelings are to be considered more important than ours? Why is it ok to hurt us but we’re out of order when we want to put a stop to it?

Feeling sick when I see all these lovely memes on SM about the “faaaamily” being there for each other. No thanks but no.

Sorry for mistakes,toomuch editing without reading 🙄

It's good we are all here for each other
I am trying to have a nice afternoon with a bit of netflix and switch off.

People not in this boat don't understand or the ones that stay and take the crap but let it slide off them. I know I hurt deeply and its affected me making deep friendships.

And she’s back! The 84 year Mother In Law from HELL e.g. the abusive, coercive narcissist. She fell yesterday over the broom that keeps her BROKEN oven door shut. A&E yesterday afternoon. Broken arm, cut head. So, she’s at ours. Unlike last year when The Hag stayed here for five weeks after coming out of hospital with an illness that wouldn’t have developed so badly if she’d gone to a dr in a sensible non-martyr way, I put into motion social services IMMEDIATELY yesterday.

Been chatting on the phone this morning with a saint who is sorting out an assessment for all the adjustments that The Hag refused last year. We intend to move her from her kept like a slum flat into sheltered accommodation.

She wants to live here and is doing her usual guilt trip manipulation game. No way! Mr Monkey told her straight that she’s abusuve and there’s no way we would have someone like that in our chilled out, loving home. She was sat screaming on the stairs this morning because MM was helping her up the stairs to her bedroom in the wrong way.

Screaming and accusing us of lying. It’s not dementia she has ALWAYS been like that and was physically abusive to her three sons to the point of trips to casualty. I’ve already made it plain that she’s getting social services and she will be going back to her flat. She hates me but the feeling is mutual.