September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Also your mother sounds childlike with very little insight or impulse control, you sound much more together and insightful.
I'm not saying this to excuse her but she may not even be capable of the level of understanding and insight that you have and can achieve.

@Free3mee3 thank you for your reply!

Yes she is very impulsive, and she says pretty awful things at times but then just uses the excuse that's just how she is. She will never see anything from anyone else's perspective apart from her own and she is always right.

I guess I just feel sad and I always end up feeling guilty. I feel sad that she will cut her nose off to spite her face and miss out on grandchildren, my daughter is almost 3 and missed a year of her life already.

Thanks for bumping @AttilaTheMeerkat. I’m going to have a look at some of the resources and read and few of the other posts for now, but placemarking for the future if I feel strong enough to post

uses the excuse that's just how she is
In a way she's telling the truth, that IS all she got, that is the best she can do she doesn't have the ability to introspect and understand that she's being completely out of order, or she doesn't have the ability to care about anyone other than herself.
But Jolly if she can say 'that's just how I am' then so can you, you can say 'I am a person who will not tolerate this bad treatment, and that's just how I am and I'm going to walk away from this woman'.
Stop wasting my mental energy on her, grieve for what you have lost and then work on accepting the situation.

Hello and welcome Brownshed😊

Hope you’re all well this wintery day.

Hi, sorry I am no support to anyone else on this thread and only come here when I am really struggling to know what to do.

My toxic mother emotionally abused me as a child (spousified, enmeshment, very manipulative and controlling in a not obvious to a child that it wasn't loving way). This continued into adulthood and after I had my DD, now 14, who both witnessed my mother's abusive behaviour towards me constantly as mother lived with us, and was subjected to it herself. I had some therapy and eventually managed to get us away when DD was 12 and sent my mother an NC message. DD has MH difficulties and is having therapy with school psychologist who says she has developmental trauma. I likely have the same and am struggling to reparatively parent without getting very triggered.

One thing I need help with dealing with is what to do about gifts from my NC mother. She sends cards with cash in to DD on birthdays and Christmas and cards and sometimes gifts to me. She does not have our address so gives the gifts to my dad (they divorced years ago) and he either brings them when he visits or posts them on to us. I have told him before that I do not want the gifts. I have not told my mother (I may have done so initially, I can't remember) as doing so means contacting her then dealing with any responses from her and my flying monkey brother. I have even texted 'thank you for the presents' the last couple of times as I felt it was setting a rude example to DD not to acknowledge the presents, I was trying to pre-empt any nastiness if I didn't acknowledge them and my dad delivers the cards which DD opens and finds the cash so I felt I couldn't take it away. I know I shouldn't have done this and now feel ashamed of myself and angry that my mother has put me in this position by not respecting NC fully. I feel like she's still managing to control us. I don't feel comfortable telling my dad to refuse to deal with the presents as then I'm just going along with his FM role and being as bad as my mum by playing her game. What should I do? 2 years after going NC and I still feel like my head is a mess and whatever I do will be the wrong thing for my DD.

Hi @YesSheCan I understand your predicament a little. Although I'm in no way comparing our experiences. I have had difficulties with receiving extravagant gifts from my parents and how to deal with these. I am LC with them (helped by COVID currently). I allow then to give my DS gifts but refuse to accept anything for me or my DH. To the point that when they dropped gives off on my doorstep when I was at work and pooped them back on their doorstep unopened with a polite but firm text explaining why they can't be accepted. It's really hard isn't it?
Could you ask your dad to stop bringing them round?

Only read the OP so far but have seen these threads around and haven't felt the need to join in until now. I am currently half way through Toxic Parents and I'm finding it very good.

So what's brought me here is my father. Mother buggered off when I was little and I was brought up by my GPs (father's mum and step dad). Father had weekend contact and I lived with him for a few chaotic years when I was a bit older before going back to my GPs.

Father of the year he is not. He's not abusive but he certainly isn't a dad despite the odd days out or trips to the park. As an adult he's been in my life less and less over the last few years. I have a thread on this. I recently discovered that the reason for this os because 1 year I bought him a cheap box of chocolates when he normally spent about £50 on me for Christmas.

So after all the shit he's put me through, and it's only now I can look back and see what this is. I have a 27 point list on what hes's done. He's gone LC with me and his grandchildren because of 1 present, 1 time!

This is the man who prevented my adoption by my GPs because he wanted to claim single parent benefits. The man who committed DV on a couple of occasions and left 11/12 year old me to deal with my younger siblings. Who always obviously favoured his youngest. Who has basically used me as somewhere to go to when he had my siblings and I had moved out. Who wanted me as a convenient babysitter. He wasn't terrible. This wasn't all the time. I've always made excuses for him. But looking back over my life I can see things much more clearly and it's like a fog has been lifted.

He's never asked how I am. Never shown any interest in my life. Never attended a school play or sports day. Same with his GCs. Looking back I can see that he did the obligatory minimum and clearly he doesn't feel that need anymore.

Well screw him. And sometime I will catch up on this thread. I'm liking the recommendations though so will have a good read through.

@YesSheCan - I totally get your predicament. I had the same thing. Those unsolicited "gifts" are like toxic waste parcels. They trigger all sorts of upset when they arrive.

I think you have to absolutely spell it out once and for all.

To your dad - tell him "I don't want anything from my mother. Don't bring me anything from her. I don't care what she says. I don't want it. Put it in the bin if you must, but don't bring it to me."

A big firm NO is very clear. And if it happens again, a note to your mother - "PLEASE DO NOT SEND ME ANYTHING."

And if anything does turn up just throw it straight into the outside bin. Don't open it. Don't give it a single thought.

Hi all,
I posted a while ago about my lunatic family. Narcissistic mother who.now has dementia, narc sister who a Rottweiler version of my mother. And flying monkey and manipulative brother.

I had been very low contact til March of last year, I just couldn't take anymore. My mother's dementia and the appalling caring job my brother was doing and my narc sister enabling him. He used to lock my mother in the house, shouting at her. Financially abusing her etc.. I didn't want to be a part of this anymore. And I felt I was being lined up to be the divvy, and take verbal abuse. So I opted for no contact.

If we fast forward to November my mother fell and broke her hip, my brother called and I went to see her before she went in the ambulance. Thankfully I did, because my brother was going to try to stand her up. Reckoned nothing wrong with her. She went to hospital I got no updates from them etc.. which is fine as I'm no contact.

Today my narc sister shows up at my doo r hurling abuse and insults, all the while wondering why I haven't been in contact. I tried to explain my reasons which made things worse, I wouldn't back down like I would have in the past. So more abuse and insults followed. Turns out the our mothers dementia has worsened badly. She cannot be left alone and they need the skivvy back to take up the slack.
Sorry for such a long post. I guess I don't know what to do. The guilt is resurfacing.

Hi Cailin, that sounds like a hellish situation for you 😖
I wonder if it's worth posting on the elderly board for advice on on how to deal with this situation because they might have specific knowledge?
Can you take the stance that social services have to be informed because this is clearly a safeguarding issue and she needs specialist care?
if you need to communicate with your sister and your brother is it possible to keep this over email so as to avoid confrontations?

@YesSheCan

We have the same issue with cards and presents. It honestly feels like the abusive person has burst into our house. On one level I know its just a 'thing' but emotionally it is like a flaming bag of dog poo being left on our door.

We went NC to protect our children. Now, the abusive person sends VERY large presents to our home via courier (so they get a photo of it on our doorstep), with our child's name in large letters. They are too large to tuck away, the are obviously presents, and my oldest child has learned to recognise their own name.

For the first year, it would upset DH and I for days. Make us angry/hurt/frightened all over again. We'd deliberate - do we send it back? Donate it? Give it to a friend? Give it to our child? Ditch the gift but save the card? What will DC think when they are older? Do we have the right to take their presents from them etc etc etc.

The abusive person started sending legal letters to our lawyer, demanding to know if the children received their presents. So we would end up paying hundreds for the time our lawyer spent reading their stupid letter and seeking instructions from us. infuriating.

What helped me a lot was talking to a psychologist about it. Here's where we landed (in case its helpful)

First, realising that stirring up drama is likely the aim of the person who sent it. So reclaim some power by deciding not to let them do that.

Second, don't send the letters or gifts back. That's communication and you want to be NC. Thats participating in the drama and giving them what they want. A good metaphor is a someone who keeps throwing balls at you because they want you to play catch with them. If you throw the ball back, you're only encouraging it.

Third, have a plan for what to do with these gifts, ahead of time. That takes away the 'oh no what do I do' deliberations when they arrive, and you wont feel caught off guard. When your Dad gives you the card, you just enact the plan you've already decided on. My psychologist described it as like taking a cockroach out of your home. You just recognise it as a pest, and calmly take it outside. Move on with your day.

We have friends with a child around the same age as ours. Each time the abusive people send an unwanted gift we put it in our shed, and pass it along the next time we see those friends. The cards I save in a box in case our children want to see them when they are older. not because I feel any obligation to the abusive person, but because I have decided that good/bad, it is a part of my childrens personal history. The box is out of sight in the back of a cupboard.

Thats our 'cockroach' plan.

It sucks that your Dad is playing piggy in the middle and not respecting your boundaries. If you have a good enough relationship, i would try explaining why you feel it is important that he not particpate by passing cards along. But you don't need to do this to make progress, I think its really about deciding our own boundaries and knowing that you can control your own life regardless.

@Cailindeas35
Hope you're ok I just wanted to add, from reading your post seems like there could be a safeguarding issue here in respect of the way your brother and sister are treating your mother? I'm thinking be very careful not to get involved and to make sure they can't pin any blame on you.
I would refer to social services, keep a log of everything and don't have any direct interaction with them, but that's just off the top of my head, hopefully you can get more detailed advice from people who have experience of these issues on the elderly boards?

@Fudgsicles
Congratulations on getting past the fog and into the sunlight🌞
Regarding your father the trash really has taken itself out hasn't it 🗑️✔️
I'm sorry your parents we're so awful, I hope you have good people in your life now who value you properly

@Free3mee3
Yes I don't want to get directly involved with them. They are very abusive. After thinking about it last night I'm going to mention my concerns to my gp, who as it happens is my mother's gp also.
For my own sake I need to keep away from my siblings.
Thks so much for your reply.

YesSheCan

re your comment:-
" I don't feel comfortable telling my dad to refuse to deal with the presents as then I'm just going along with his FM role and being as bad as my mum by playing her game"

Do not feel uncomfortable by telling your dad; he is really acting her as her secondary abuser and enabler by doing this to you and at her bidding. You can and should withdraw from her game playing and attempted control over you both. She has harmed you and your child immensely and will continue to wreak havoc here, such people like your mother (and dad for that matter also) do not change. Nor do they apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

Women like your mother also cannot do relationships so it is of no surprise whatsoever they divorced years ago.

Radio silence from you needs to be maintained; do not ever acknowledge anything in any way. A response from you is what such disordered of thinking wants; even a "please do not send me anything again" note is a response and to her that is the reward and she will then know she has you then. So do not ever acknowledge anything at all from her.

If your dad persists in dumping her "gifts" (gifts should come with ribbons and not strings and hers are loaded with obligation) onto you because he is a flying monkey (sent in by her to do her bidding for her) then you should not give him any of your time either. Do not let him into your home. He has also abjectly let you down as a parent here too. He has also acted out of self preservation and want of a quiet life; he is truly a weak man and someone not interested in hearing your side of things. Therefore his opinion should be ignored by you. Why is he collecting such things from her anyway?. Again because he is weak and a bystander; he will still quite happily throw you under the bus. Ultimately you may well adopt a no contact position with him as well.

@Cailindeas35 it sounds like the GP is a good call.

Thanks to all for your replies, I knocked my phone down the toilet yesterday morning and it's been drying out for 24 hours! @Mummyoply @Sicario thank you, yes, I do need to talk my dad and tell him I do not want him to pass the presents on. @CupOfTeaAlonePlease wow, that is another level of batshit, sending letters to your lawyer about the presents! I hope they are no longer doing that. Thank you for your advice. I do feel the need for more therapy. Trying to do the best to support my DD and addressing her trauma has brought up a load of my own stuff from when I was younger and I've been feeling very angry about it all, my confidence and self-esteem is pretty low.

@AttilaTheMeerkat thank you, what you say about my dad is correct. He did let down me and my brother by pretty much disengaging when we were kids. He has made some effort to put things right since we've been adults but I don't think he fully 'gets' how messed up things were, or doesn't want to admit it, and when I confront him with things that happened in the past, he talks about it like he was another child there with us rather than a parent who was responsible for us. I don't want to go no contact with him but definitely need much better boundaries and need to share much less personal information about DD and me as I've realised I can't fully trust that it won't get back to my mother. I will tell him I won't accept any more presents being passed on and it's up to him what to do with them.

I thought the gift thing being stressful was just me! Gone low contact with parents for a while now. Still have stuff left on the doorstep for my kids intermittently. I know this should be a nice thing but my stomach flips with dread when i see a parcel on my doorstep...and i feel guilty about that and that im unreasonable.. So tricky if the kids clock theres a parcel for them. But every parcel has a letter or card begging me to me reasonable and kind. or threatening me with disinheritance. Or saying that someone in the family is on deaths door and i should do the right thing and make contact. Or some religious quotes about forgiveness included to boot.

Still messes with my head. And its just a parcel!

mumbadger

Gifts in such cases are being used as methods of control.

Gifts should come with ribbons, not strings and your manipulative and abusive parents are now using such to further get back at you via your children. I would not acknowledge any of it and would urge you to bin anything left on the doorstep. Do not even look inside the bag left by them, just dispose of it. Do not give it any more power than it already has been given.

@mumbadger "But every parcel has a letter or card begging me to me reasonable and kind. or threatening me with disinheritance. Or saying that someone in the family is on deaths door and i should do the right thing and make contact. Or some religious quotes about forgiveness included to boot.

Still messes with my head. And its just a parcel!"

It's not just a parcel - if your parents simply wanted to give your kids a gift with no strings attached, they wouldn't include wheedling, guilt-trip letters for you. They're using the gift-giving as an opportunity to hoover you back in or at the least try to get you to feel guilty for how 'unreasonable' you're being. My mother is not so overt but writes in our cards how much she loves us and 'this is sent with love', which I take as an attempt to pull on my heartstrings so I will get in touch and apologise for cutting contact and she will tearfully 'forgive' me while simulataneously telling me how much she loves me and what a horrible, selfish person I am and how I must have been mentally ill when I behaved in such a horrible way but she will look after me....I'm pretty confident this is how it would go and it would have worked before but not now! @AttilaTheMeerkat's advice is very helpful

I'm hoping that one of you can give me some perspective please.
My daughter is expecting our first grandchild and we are really excited. So yesterday I got out all the baby albums and I've been feeling so anxious and upset now but it all sounds so silly.
I thought if I wrote it down I could understand it and maybe get some insight.
My mum is now in a care home and our relationship is complicated. She was so glamorous when my kids were little but was not interested in them or me. She used to say she would babysit 'if she had nothing better to do'.
Seeing the photos has brought up all kinds of panicky feelings in me. Tbh I have been a very dutiful daughter and she has no idea of how much the things she has said/ say now hurt me.
I looked at the pictures of us and she looks like a model and I look like a worn down woman. I know that's life and I know I will be a good grandma. I genuinely have a great relationship with my daughters and I keep up a good pretence of having a relationship with her.
Maybe it's too much time on my hands because of lockdown but I feel so panicked whenever I think about her. We talk once a day and I visit once a week.

When my DC were born, I had a fear that I would be the same towards them as she was towards me. It lurked way too often and still to this day flashes into my subconscious. We are told so often that history repeats but I can say that I learnt how 'not' to be from her.

Maybe with another baby on the way, you are feeling terribly conscious of their vulnerability and the power that people in a position of care can wield.

That's said, you sound like you have broken the chain and you clearly are a loving and much loved Mum and will clearly be an amazing Grandma.

The very fact that you question yourself (as do I, constantly) shows that you are nothing like your mother. My own Mum lacks a huge amount of introspection and hindsight, which of course makes it easy, oh so easy to never blame herself.

Thank you Nel
I really appreciate your help. My mum doesn't have any self awareness and I wish I had a bit less.