September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

This is a link to the previous May 2020 thread:-

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3902065-But-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-May-2020-onwards-thread

Thanks @AttilaTheMeerkat for starting the new thread.@Frownette @Fl1mflam the main thing I noticed changing in my healing process with my therapist is that I firstly could let go of the anger and then started to move past it. If you can get time with a therapist who 'gets' you, I hope it will help you as much as it's helped me

Thank you @AttilaTheMeerkat for starting this thread.

I wanted to respond to the previous poster whose golden child brother is trying to get back in contact. You are so right - no matter how much you try to reason with these people it’s a waste of time. But I still try!!

One thing my parents can never take from me is the close relationship I have with my girls and that I would not dream of inflicting abuse on them. It’s There are no arguments in our household. They all have each other’s back. And my parents probably know this and try to superimpose some fucked up nonsense idea onto my relationship with my kids go make themselves feel better. No parent is perfect but at least I can admit I can be wrong and will apologise if I was wrong.

My parents both blame me for their ill physical health. And my mum says her life would have been easy if only she never had me. Instead of dealing with the uncomfortable truths about her childhood and her narcissistic mother and pedophile father, she instead whitewashes all that and dumps her shit on me. I’ve had 2 years of counselling to try & fix my mental health problems because I didn’t want my children to be stuck with a mum who’s in and out of a psychiatric ward.

How can some people lack self awareness?

@SugarbabyMilly, not sure how old you are but it took until my mid forties for me to finally give up on my family completely. Exactly same scenario as you, my mother's untreated mental illness from her dysfunctional childhood allowed her to unleash her madness onto me her scapegoat. I think she resented my existence as the second accidental pregnancy. Cos it was all my fault I was born

She had three children by the time she was 20 with my dad. Doted on golden child brother who experienced a completely different childhood to me and my sister. Hated my dad too. Constantly cheated on him in front of us which was perfectly reasonable in her and her co-conspirator families' eyes. We saw her having sex with her boyfriends. Completely messed up but she plays the innocent victim in public, always has and has had various flying monkey defenders all her life.

Anyway the only way out of it has been to leave. I tried low contact but it doesn't work. You still get infected with the madness. I still have to check with my partner and my therapist that my perception is accurate and reasonable. The unwanted contact from my brother still affects me which is why I post on here for a reality check.

And the saddest irony is I offered myself up as the family scapegoat because I couldn't bear the lies and deceit, the distortion that was going on and had to speak up. I have been pointing out the crap for years but no one would listen. I must have appeared mad!

Now I don't care what the nutters and their cronies think. I know what I know. It was wrong. I don't want to participate and they won't drag me back in. I sincerely hope you can get to the same place @SugarbabyMilly. Letting go is really hard but worth it.

MIL is in her element this morning and has now adopted herself (again) in the role of Gatekeeper of Information re her elderly non narc sister whose house developed a problem overnight needing the insurers. Let's make a drama out of a crisis!. Bloody MIL, evil woman. I hope that her sister at some point calls me directly and bypasses evil MIL.

@Mytabbymademedoit that's nice to hear.

Oddly enough I spoke to my therapist/counsellor this morning about anger. I was really flat and worn out as I've had a throat/chest lurgy thing since Saturday and didn't have the energy to deal with a family drama on Monday but I'll speak to her properly about it next week.

@AttilaTheMeerkat

MIL is in her element this morning and has now adopted herself (again) in the role of Gatekeeper of Information re her elderly non narc sister whose house developed a problem overnight needing the insurers. Let's make a drama out of a crisis!. Bloody MIL, evil woman. I hope that her sister at some point calls me directly and bypasses evil MIL.

Oh they don't half go on at times. It's very tiring.

Have you got her sister's number and can go direct?

Yep

Will contact her directly in a couple of days.

Thanks for starting the new thread @AttilaTheMeerkat
Does anyone have book recommendations specifically re parenting teens when you're an adult child of a disordered parent? Basically 'How not to screw up your kids like your parents did to you'. I mean, I know not to shout, scream, guilt trip, manipulate, make child feel responsible for your emotions, criticise the way they do every single little thing, assassinate their personalities, base all praise on their academic/hobby achievements and not their personal development etc etc etc....but I still have a lot of anxiety that I will turn out like my mother despite all my efforts not to and even though I know I'm not her.

@YesSheCan I found "If you had controlling parents" by Dan Neuharth and "Will I Ever Be Good Enough" by Karyl McBride to be especially useful.

Thanks @RiveterRosie I'll take a look at those

Here to vent, mainly, and ask if you ever get over the guilt and do you think that you "punish" yourself for it.

I've been particularly down this week because it's the anniversary of some very major surgery that I had 12 months ago and which I've still not fully recovered from. I decided that after 12 months it was time to accept the physical and mental change and to start to make plans around my new normal, and indulge myself for a couple of days. Yesterday I lounged around all day in my PJs reading and planning a day out today. I planned to treat myself to breakfast, go out to a small country town and wander around site-seeing for an hour or so, then find a nice spot for a picnic lunch. I felt happy at the prospect of starting to do things I enjoy.

Then at 5pm my mother called wanting to see me "this afternoon or tomorrow". My mother is recently widowed and is now living with my sister. My sister & I had already previously discussed the new Covid rules (the city I'm in has a ban on two household's mixing indoors or in gardens) and decided that visits were not possible. My sister had explained this to my mother.

She wasn't wearing her hearing aid so I had to shout down the phone, I live in a flat, my neighbours could easily hear what I was saying (shouting) so which makes me very self-conscious. I told her it wasn't possible to visit today and that tomorrow I had something that I wanted to do, but I'd talk to my sister and maybe we could meet up in the nearby park for an hour on Tuesday. She couldn't hear me so I was practically bellowing down the phone and repeating everything at least 3 times. She got in a big huff and said that she obviously doesn't matter, that everyone is breaking the Covid rules so why couldn't I, and to not bother going at all. Then she cut the call.

Why did it put a downer on the rest of my Sunday? I felt so mean not going. I can rationalise my decision in my head: it's not an emergency, she's not on her own, she's with my sister and her family who dote on her and indulge her every whim, she's vulnerable if she contracts Covid, as is one of my nephews and as am I. If she wanted a chat she could put her hearing aid in and we could talk on the phone or we could have a text conversation.

I woke up this morning thinking "I'll pop round this afternoon". I've ended up feeling so guilty about saying no that I haven't gone out today as I planned, no lovely breakfast just a manky piece of toast from the last crust of bread, no lovely picnic lunch to look forward to. It's almost as if I'm punishing myself for putting myself first.

@YesSheCan a book I found really helpful for understanding healthy boundaries and functional relationships between parent and child is "how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk" there are different versions for different ages/scenarios. It is not specific to people who weren't effectively parented but it gave me a blueprint for how things could be.

Enormously helpful for many parts of my life.

@RiveterRosie - that is very familiar. I have good days and bad days. So I don't think of it as linear - things will improve over time. Rather - some days I'm stronger than others.

You have recognised the self sabotage and the sabotage efforts of you mother this time - the hearing aid is pure theatrics isn't it? So maybe next time you'll manage the situation differently.

Oh yes @Griefmonster I've heard of that one...might even have it somewhere. Obviously need to dig it out again! Thanks

@RiveterRosie, I feel like there is a question implicit in your post - "why can't I make myself immune to my mother's guilt tripping?" I would say the answer to that is that the cocktail of fear, obligation and guilt that your mother has used to keep you in line is a potent one, and you've been taking it since you were very, very young. It's not easy to just reason or train yourself out of those feelings. It would make life easier if you could, because it would be much easier to keep healthy boundaries with your mother if you could, but I don't know anyone who finds this stuff easy.

I would suggest to you that the next time you have nice plans, you make yourself uncontactable until you've had your day out. Unplug the home phone, switch off your mobile. Then she can't phone you and ruin your day. I think it is a bit like what you are doing as regards your surgery - accept (for now, anyway?) that your mother does have this effect on you, and rather than trying to fight that, you just plan around it? Because you deserve your day out, and you also deserve to have your day out without having to use all your mental resources to fend off your mother's bloody guilt tripping.

Hi everyone been on here a while, name changed a few times. I did write a thread about this but thought people would understand on here better.
I've recently came out as Bisexual and started dating a woman. I only told my sister to begin with and ask her not to tell our parents as I didn't know how they would take it. A month passed by and I decided to tell my parents. They seemed OK with it. My sister then tells me she told our parents weeks ago! I was so angry she betrayed my trust. My mum hasn't fully accepted this news.
However I feel like my sister is using this to create a divide in the family and push me out. She said she told our parents to protect me from them. Actually I feel she did it to gossip and use it as a reason to say look she's not perfect. Its not like it hasn't happened before anyway. I've always felt the outsider. Ive recently learnt about triangulation and this is what happens in my family between me, mum and sister.
Why do I always feel like I'm their target of attack?
It drains me.

I recently ordered a book called 'The Emotional Incest Syndrome: What To Do When A Parent's Love Rules Your Life' by Dr Patricia Love, as I thought this applied most closely to my background. My mother is not overtly narcissistic or neglectful of my needs. When I was little she seemed to be very loving, praising me, nurturing my talents, telling me how wonderful I was etc etc. It was as I hit my midteens that I felt the slightest hint of resentment that she leant heavily on me for emotional support and talked endlessly at me about her miserable childhood, how she should never have married my dad, all about how he left her before they got married and how she should have married someone else, how unsupportive and uncommunicative he was, what went wrong with her previous relationships, how I shouldn't be like my dad because he hadn't made anything of his life....I felt so guilty that I sometimes resented this and mostly convinced myself that I was being so mature and a good person by listening to my mum and comforting her. If my friends said my mum was mean for not letting me do things I would defend her to them because she was such a lovely mum to me and also right about everything. She had me very well trained. Reading this book was kike looking in a mirror. And it had some very useful 'homework' sections to help with recovery from an emotionally intrusive parent. But there is nothing in the book about when it is necessary to go no contact. There's a lot of advice about boundary setting and reconciling with your parent(s). In my case and in many others I'm sure, I tried setting boundaries with my mother but quickly gave up because her reaction was so toxic. I went NC not to spite my mother but to prevent further emotional abuse to myself and my DD and to allow us to recover. We could not have done this if I had stayed in contact with my mother. Would be interested to know if anyone else has read this book and what they think. I would recommend for the work on yourself bits and the parenting advice bits, which is mainly what I wanted, but with the caveat that it doesn't take into account that no contact is sometimes necessary

Morning all, just wanted to put this here as no one IRL gets any of this. I have been maintaining LC with M for a while now, recently she has been hoovering and I’ve been continuing to resist being pulled in so far. She called me this week very upset about an issue with her side of the family, it is genuinely a very horrible situation and I do feel for her on a human level.

At first my heart hurt for her, as she is truthfully being treated very poorly in this scenario. Then she mentioned my GC B who she is NC with but still holds up high on a pedestal despite the lack of contact for decades and click, I was back in the room. She was telling me that so long as he is looked after in this situation she can deal with it.

There it is, she doesn’t even hide that she couldn’t give a shit about me yet she wants emotional support and comfort from me, I then ended the call saying I had to go, my boss was calling which allowed me to hang up on her immediately.

I don’t know how it took me so long to see that she treats me like a member of staff, no regard for me, never provides me with any emotional support and yet I am expected to be there, listen, comfort and inside me, I start to conform, I start to feel bad for her, to think she’s misunderstood by others and she’s not “that bad” then reality comes along and gives me a swift kick. It just serves as a reminder of how deep this “training” is in me.

Hello. I heard about this thread and wondered if anyone has been through this or maybe can offer any advice.
Sorry this is long

I went NC two years ago with my parents after years and years of them being mean to me left me not knowing who I am as an adult.
I grew up in what I think was a bad home (no heating, had to wash with a basin of water until teens, not enough food etc)
My parents were abusive to each other and domestic violence was on a daily basis. Eventually the domestic violence spilled onto me and siblings. The worst part for me is my mother acted like she despised me. She would beat me then tell me not to tell my dad. My dad would get home and for the slightest wrong id be beaten.
Anyway fast forward I rebelled through my teens. I refused to be treated in this way. I wasn't fed, I wasn't bought basics like toiletries, I wasn't even allowed to open my bedroom window for the whole time I lived there, life was hell. If I rebelled I'd be beaten. My mum was beaten by my dad as well.

In public all was fine. My parents used to say to each other if they beat me not to beat the face so no one could see marks.
In public they told everyone including extended family I was a nightmare. From very young i was the difficult dc, the uncontrollable dc. My siblings would comply to stay safe but I always rebelled so everything matched up with what my parents said about me. I'd rebel at school and was angry that no one was helping me. I told my school some of the abuse but they believed my parents,
In the end I got out by marrying. Much to my shame I married for money to get out and be safe. I am safe now though and happy. Finally last year my mum said she's cutting me out of her will and my siblings will get everything she leaves after her death. I just know she did this on purpose as a final act of nastiness.
She then said she didn't want to speak to me anymore. At first I was so hurt but as time has passed I started to reflect on everything and feel a lot better now. My siblings are all in denial that any of it happened even though they too were affected and since last year, my mum has made a point of telling as many people as possible I cut her off!! She's been crying to anyone who will listen and say I truly was the most awful dc.

Anyway some of my extended family every now and then contact me saying please you must make amends with your mother. Eventually someone got to me (despite me saying that it was my mother who cut me off they didn't believe me). They said it doesn't matter, my dad is on his deathbed I must go and see him.
The thing is I told them I would go and see my parents. But as I've stepped away, I don't think I want to.
I feel really nasty but I feel like this may finally be over with their death.

I don't know what to do. Some days I want to be sucked back into the fake 'nice family in public' so I don't have to deal with the story of no parents around anymore or excuse myself from seeing them.

Should I go and see my dying dad. The friend said he is so sad that he may not see me again. Both my parents had horrendous upbringings and clearly have severe mental health issues that I finally can see as an adult but I don't know if this means I have to 'step back into the ring' as it feels like as soon as I'm back something has to go wrong.

OP, you are the only one who can make the decision about whether or not to visit your father before he dies. But please make the choice that will be best for you, not him.
If you think you would punish yourself with years of guilt tripping for not going, or would have regrets, then go.
But if you know it will achieve nothing, he will not be at all repentant for his abuse of you, and the visit will simply distress you and set back your recovery from your childhood abuse, while giving him the opportunity to inflict more damage, then don’t go.
I went nc with my parents in my thirties, and never saw them again. I did not attend the funerals. I have never regretted my decision. My only grief at their death was the knowledge that now I could never have the normal loving parents I wanted, and there could never be an apology or even recognition of their abusive behaviour. Narcissists don’t change and never accept blame. If you go, you will need to be prepared to face emotional blackmail, manipulation, and the disappointment of finding that he and the rest of the family still cast you in the role of scapegoat.
Good luck with whatever you decide. Stay strong.

Sorry, that was for goldenswirls, not you, Attila!

Hi goldenswirls

I would ignore all such attempts from your wider family to hoover you back into that dysfunctional abusive world.

Your parents made choices when it came to their kids and they took the low road; they basically repeated with you and to a lesser extent your siblings what was done to them. Neither of them sought or even perhaps wanted to seek the necessary help. You have also had a horrendous upbringing at the hands of your abusive parents and you would not treat your child like this now. People make choices.

You matter. You do not have to see your parents at all if you do not want to. There is no law to say that you must see them at really other people's behest and for what its worth you have no idea of how unwell your dad now is. He may not be as close to his deathbed either as you have been led to believe.

Flying monkeys like the wider family are not interested in hearing your side of things and they often are acting in their own self interest and or have their own agenda. Flying monkeys too are often sent in by narcissists and or otherwise disordered of thinking people to do their bidding for them. They are that easily manipulated. I would ignore all such attempts by them to reach out to you.

Thank you for the advice. @Babdoc this has reassured me too. It's more the societal guilt of not going to see a dying parent than me actually 'caring'. I don't want to see them again. I don't want to even attend their funerals.

And yes @AttilaTheMeerkat my extended family play a part in this. I am looked down upon due to all of the lies, when I try to speak up I am shut down often on the understanding 'I've always been the bad one though' it hurts but I now tell myself I matter, I have feelings and they do matter, I am trying to take more care of myself after years of self sabotage as well. Also having dc made me change. I could see so clearly how badly id been treated. I could never ever treat my dc in this way.

goldenswirls, it is often when we have children ourselves that we realise how truly awful our parents were. We cannot imagine ever treating our own DC like that.
I went nc when I was pregnant with my first child - I didn’t want them to have any contact with their grandchildren or risk them ill treating them too. Fortunately, DH had normal relatives - parents and an aunt - although they were 250 miles away, so we visited them instead.
DH died when both DC were still in nappies, and l had to raise them alone while working as a doctor, but I still think I did a better job of parenting alone than mine did together!
My DDs are now 29 and 31, with happy successful lives, and we all love each other dearly. Proof that the cycle of abuse can be broken.