September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi everyone, I’m so glad this thread is back so thank you @AttilaTheMeerkat for all the work you do here.

I’m good/bad. I’ve cut out booze for the last 31 days and I feel really good for it. I drink far too much and I’ve used it over the years to calm down the bipolar, or just torn into it when manic or to calm down in certain situations. More of “situations” later!

I’ve been discharged by my psychiatrist and started counselling this morning with an amazing woman.

The not very amazing woman remains my toxic mother in law. She’s, as ever, utterly dreadful. We’ve done so much emotional labour this year: her illness with five weeks here, her 10 days staying here whilst her flat was done up - we couldn’t cope with her horrible behaviour and banished her home.

On Sunday, we had her over for lunch. She started an argument over the plates immediately and then over money - my partner looks after her savings account and has, completely to her knowledge, paid for new blinds and a washing machine. Cue 30 minutes of horrible behaviour, I could see my partner feeling as if he was accused of a swindle - absolutely not. She then decided to storm off which is hard when you’re 84 and using a walking stick. She’s supposed to be coming round on Thursday whilst the last bit on her flat is done. “I suppose you don’t want me here on Thursday”. Me: “you are welcome to come here but NOT if you behave like this”. There was the usual “I’m sorry” which is the cue for me to say “I’m sorry, too”. This time I said “I’m glad you are sorry. I feel I have nothing to apologise for and you cannot behave like this in our house”. OH walked her home and she was still griping,

Even though it was relatively trivial, it’s the most devastating event to date. She phoned yesterday with the martyr act and I just could not speak to her. Sunday’s kick off was after us taking her to two medical appointments (constant moaning), waiting in with her for the arrival of new washing machine, getting her a new hairdryer and something else she needed. I was so proud of not snatching the bottle of red out of OH’s hand and keeping to my no booze rule. I refuse for her to ruin this for me.

I’ve had a great conversation with the therapist where the witch dominated the conversation. I was crying. I said the unsayable which I really think is that I want her to die. I do. She’s had a miserable life and wants the misery to be experienced by other people. She cannot understand or accept other people’s happiness or even want it. The counsellor was amazing - she reiterated that her behaviour was untenable and that I was a kind and lovely person. I am. The witch makes me feel shit, although on Sunday I was proud of my reaction and standing up to her,

I am simply dreading Christmas. I want to see my mum (not in our bubble) but we’ve got her. Every year Xmas becomes a drama - my mum hosts Xmas - there is constant whining and misery from her. The family are all pissed and jolly and ignore her.

I think I need to say to her directly that she can come for Xmas but she absolutely cannot behave like this again. I don’t want to sit there on Xmas day numbing the pain with wine. I want to keep with my sobriety.

We’ve decided that we go low contact. There are plenty of good places where my energy can go.

Thanks for listening.

Hello all.

I have read posts referring to the Statelyhomes thread and thought it was about time to have a read.

I'm not sure I belong here (never felt I belonged anywhere to be honest) and yet many experiences I have read through resonate with me and my own childhood experiences.

I have suffered with anx/ depending on and off and until recently I thought it was just me, that I am different, odd, sensitive, hardwork, difficult, spoiled, akward etc etc.....coincidentally these are labels ascribed to me throughout childhood/ teenhood/ adulthood by my mother. It was only after having my own babies that I started to think perhaps there was something off with my mother/ father and how they treated me and my siblings and that's when I started to get resentful. Resentful that i did not get the support from my parents that i so easily give to my children and resentful that my mother guilt trips me pretty much.... all the time.....

I am no contact with my father, he was abusive to my mother and siblings.... and emotionally abusive to me and a very scary man at times. We lived in chaos and fear. When my mother left him...I was 11/12.... she kinda got bored of being a parent....my older siblings left/ were leaving and it was just me and her.... she had realised she'd wasted all these years on a complete arsenal and she went, almost overnight, from a loving/ fairly present (maybe a bit engulfing) mother to a rejecting/ very unpresent parent with a fondness for booze and drugs and from then on I was shipped out to any tom, dick or harry to "babysit" for fairly extended periods....Our current situation is I'm in contact with my mother (parents aren't together) but it is like I'm in a guilt/ resentment relay race with her.........

I'm close to my sibs but that have also become strained as they do not like the way I feel about our mum..... sometimes they complain about how tactless/ emotionally unsupportive/ mean she is and then a day or 2 later it's all fine because she doesn't mean it/ can't help being tactless/ is a bit dense and so on.....I understand they don't like me to say how I feel about her because they love her but also because, according to them, she speaks so highly of me and my family that they don't understand why I have any issues at all......

I'm at a point where the slightest dig from my mum makes me want to punch her in the face. I have recently started therapy and emdr after having some wishy washy style counselling for too long.

I keep having flashbacks, not that I remember much from childhood but I get glimpses from time to time and I know I felt lonely, ugly, an outcast for a very long time.

I have a great OH and kids, I have also got friends but my problem is I'm not very good at intimacy and I don't have many old friends (a very long story) I think I used to cope through self- medication but that is now in the past.... the fact that I am no longer doing this means I am feeling everything very rawly and for the first time in a loooong time ..perhaps....

Having done a bit if reading etc I would say my mother was a bit engulfing but I would also say she cycles between infantilising me and parenting me (if those are the correct terms!).....I would say she engulfed me before the age of 11 and then got me to parent myself and then to parent her.....and I parented her until I started a family of my own....now that I am parenting my own family I think she feels abandoned.....

It is my relationships with my siblings that I am finding extremely painful... I always thought they had my back....but now I'm not so sure which then makes me feel guilty for feeling that way and I also become anxious perhaps I'm the one with something wrong with me.....gosh, what a headache this all is.

Anyway, my ultimate aim is to be happy and to be the best parent I can be and that is why I'm here. I am looking forward to journeying with you all.

Apologies for the waffling overview :)

Thank you

Recently name changed due to total IT failure requiring new mumsnet log in - posted here before as Riveter Rosie.

Coming here today to vent among people who know what it's like.

Mother, 86, recently widowed, now living with my sister & her family. Sister has bent over backwards to make mum welcome and comfortable. Nephews are like footmen, running around fetching my mum tea, blanket, lunch, tablets etc. Is that enough? No, obviously not, because it's my mother: the waify, needy, emotional vampire who never has a good word to say about anyone.

I was ill (some kind of pancreatitis) over the weekend and couldn't visit. Tuesday I had MRI scan as part of pancreas investigation. Quite stressed about MRI & what it might find. Yesterday went to visit mum. Met with tale of woe about a cold she's caught and how ill she'd been on Tuesday, how she thought she'd need to "go away" (to hospital). Not a word asking how I was, how MRI went, when will I get result etc. Ask sister, out of mum's hearing what had been wrong on Tuesday. Sister replies " she's got a bit of a sniffle and worked herself up".

Mum insists me and her go out to "that nice big supermarket we went to before". On the way regaled with general moans about how much she dislikes great grandchildren. They're selfish and greedy and she's not buying them any Christmas presents. Reason: they visited her at the weekend - took her a nice box of chocolates - but they are going to a seaside caravan this week and it was all they were interested in, not interested at all in those who weren't going on holiday (her?). Ffs they are children, surely it's normal for any 10 year old's head to be full of the holiday they're going on?

In supermarket wander around for 2 hours. I get awful abdominal pain that makes me double up. Does she suggest we leave the shop and go home? Does she go with my suggestion we go to the cafe & sit down for half and hour? Of course not, we continue to wander around while I hear more diatribe of how greedy everyone in the house is - an opinion which seems to be based on the size of a sandwich someone ate on Sunday. Spot very large sacks of teabags on special offer. Suggest taking one back with us as sister & family are copious tea drinkers. Mum poo poos idea because "they are greedy and wasteful in the way they drink tea" (like most people these days they chuck a tea bag in the cup rather than make in a pot the way she always has)

We go to the clothing section where we spend an age looking at dressing gowns in case she "needs to go away" in the night. Having been taken to A&E by ambulance in the early hours twice this year, once wearing only a vest & pair of pants that I'd wee'd in during a seizure, I could have reassured her that what you are dressed in is the least of your & the paramedic worries, but I didn't. At that moment I am feeling I might be "going away" sometime in the next hour if my pain gets any worse.

Pay and pack bags. Mum declares her back hurts. Guide her and two trollys full of bags to bench at front of store. She plonks herself and bag down so there's no room for me to sit. I stand for 15 minutes while she "gets her strength back".

Go back to sister's. Mum shows me the box of chocolates she had on Sunday. She takes one, bites it in half to show me how nice the filling is and then puts lid back on box without offering me one (I feel so petty being put out cos she didn't offer me a choc). Drink tea (hopefully not in a wasteful & greedy manner) and by now it's gone 6 pm. Tell mum I'm off home. She starts crying and asking me to stay. Tell her sister will be bringing her dinner in a minute and DH is cooking mine at home. Through tears she asks why I can't stay for dinner at sister's house. Tell her I'll see her Friday. She immediately brightens and tells me she on Friday wants me to take her to the such & such shop.

Drive home contemplating whether she see me as being wasteful and greedy too.

Gosh that sounds like a few family members i know. You must be exhausted?.... sorry cant figure out how to reply properly so hope you read this. It all sounds terribly, intentionally, guilt inducing. Is this a pattern of behaviour?

My mother is not yet elderly but this is EXACTLY how she is treated by HER mother.

I am still fairly knew to all this, I'm still wondering if the issues i have with my mother are all in my head.....and yet the pattern repeats.... it's become predictable....

I just got home and OH tells me she'd "popped in" (not a regular occurrence.... we live about 15 min drive from each other.....so not out of the question either) I'd spoken to her the night before last as we had just got back from a short holiday and told her we were hitting the ground running so to speak (meaning we have a busy week ahead)......she said she had not seen us for "ages" (approx 10 days ago because I was really poorly and then went off on our holidays straight after, we usually see her once/ twice a week) and would like to see us tomorrow as she is working today. She said she was busy in the morning and we would have to do the afternoon...obviously not at all interested in what I have planned..... I said I had a hospital scan appointment and not sure how long it would take but said if I couldn't catch up with her after that I would see her this coming weekend.... I was already feeling put on and at the same time guilty because actually, what I really want to do is get my appointment out the way and sort my washing/ house/ life out before I see anyone.....She never got in touch yesterday to see how the appointment was or if I was free to catch up so I left it and did exactly what I wanted which was......the washing! I thought to myself, great, she understands....I'll see her sat or sun...no drama....sorted.

Just got home from taking the kids out and my OH said she turned up (awww she just wants to see you.....)

It probably sounds trivial but it really gets to me. She says she's so desperate to see the kids..... why not offer to have one of them over for an hour or 2 then?! Same as the week before when I was unwell (I never get poorly but boy was I feeling s*) no offer to help out for an hour....

And when I reread my post I think, what a cow I am. But I know I'm not. Talk about head f*.

Hi @LondonTowers, I always had that feeling of never belonging in my FOO until I realized through therapy that I didn't belong. That's the thing with scapegoating in dysfunctional families. Someone has to be the nominated bad person to dump all the crap on and it sounds like it's you in your family. Also that idea that there's something wrong with you, which there isn't, but you've probably been trained to think that and every single mistake been scrutinised and held up for public examination. The amount of shame I carried round with me for family sins could have filled the O2. I am not going to lie to, this insidious idea that gets planted takes a lot of time to challenge. As for the lack of support from your siblings, they probably don't want to be in the firing line of your mother so don't rock the boat. Is any of this resonating with you op? Keep on with the therapy and find a therapist that you connect with. Don't settle for wishy washy.

As for wanting to punch your inadequate mother in the face, yep, have that thought myself alot even though I am no contact with mine. Anger is normal and healthy for the abuse you have suffered. The cushions on the sofa are a great substitute for your mother's face!

Also @LondonTowers, have a read of Pete Walker's book on complex PTSD. It's a revelation.

@Learmarmite, OMG!!! As an outsider reading about your mother, all I can say is what an absolute cow! Self absorbed and completely selfish. Recommend the sofa cushions to you too!

@Dacquoise thank you. You'll never guess what i bought that book last week, just started it so only a handful of pages in and I actually thought about jacking it in the other day .... like it's not for me....like I haven't had it that bad.......but I will persevere!

What you said does resonate with me. I probably am the scapegoat but I was always told I was the golden child (literally I was told I was the favourite and special but also fat/ greedy/ too sensitive/ weird etc etc so very mixed messages) I think I'm a mixed bag.....I'm everything and nothing at the same time.. if there is such a thing I would love to know!

If you were the last child left at home, you may alternated between scapegoat and golden child at the whim of your mother. However, being given any sort of label in childhood is highly abusive and damaging. You may find meditation and yoga very helpful in resetting your brain against internalised messages. May seem a bit woo to you but I can promise you it will help especially if you are having flashbacks.

Abuse doesn't come in grades, by the way, it's very painful to realise that what you thought was 'normal' parenting wasn't. Mothers that consistently shame, humiliate and neglect their children cause immense damage and affect all future relationships that you may have.

Yep.....last child I was.... Got to about 11/ 12 and mum actually told me she'd had enough of parenting. She was done. Out. I'm not saying she didn't meet some of my needs... but.. it was chaos.. and lonely.

Then for the next decade, nearly 2, was spent with me doting on my mother.... she was wrapped up in her latest boyfriend and social life.... I cant believe I used to feel upset she didn't want to be around me more, then I started a family of my own and got upset she didn't want to be around my kids more, but I got over it and started to get a life/ build a life.........then......EVERYTHING changed......her boyfriend dumped her about 5 years ago and now she wants to spend more time with me.... and my children.....more and more (Apart from when she gets the chance to drink/ socialise.....don't see her for dust then....alcohol is an issue ) she asks me to do things for her (the kind of things a mother would do for their child), she offers to "help" eg) pick up my child from school (This is not something I need help with btw)......but in return she asks me to cook her a regular sunday meal (omfg it sounds ridiculous but when did she ever make me a roast......or dinner.....and I was a bllody kid!)......

ANYWAY soz I'm getting a bit ranty! @da I love a bit of woo ;) no problem there and a good suggestion x

You have every reason to feel angry so rant away. Your mother sounds very narcissistic. It's all about her needs isn't it and she feels absolutely no compulsion against off loading them on you. Where are your siblings in this? Looks like you've been dibbed with you're 'it' to take care of her. Know what that's like. My DB left me to it until I got out.

Which brings me to the crunch. Are you wanting to step back from her (which may not be possible if she's the guilt tripping demanding type) or do you want to make a break? I went NC a long time ago and never felt freer, peaceful and become the authentic person I was always meant to be. But it's not for the faint hearted. Think scapegoating dialled up to eleven by all those round you. You may also find that a lot of your friends and acquaintances are of a similar dynamic. I married a version of my mother who joined in the family scapegoating of me. Also found a friendship group that was duplicate of my dysfunctional family. It really is the gift that keeps giving.

Wow the things you say resonate so much....Its a bit odd with my siblings, we were always sooo tight but since questioning the "family culture" (so to speak) I seem to have alienated myself, my siblings have become very close and they never were before.....it's been really painful but I'm coming to terms with it now... My sis lives away and only really sees mum every couple months. Before she moved away she definitely had a few issues with her (chiefly snide name calling/ barbed "compliments" etc) but now shes lived away for a number of years they have a much better relationship, I'd say mum thinks shes pretty "golden" and in return my sis tends to fawn and be quite gushing towards our mum which, literally, makes me queasy :)

My other sib lives near by but has no kids, they have an alright relationship but my mother treated her obscenely as a child so it beggars belief really!

I definitely have attracted people of the same ilk for years. My friendship group seemed to dump me when I started a family and I came to the realisation it was because I was no longer fun or useful......this hurt a lot because.....even my mum says...I'm very loyal! Saying that, something very odd happened a number of years ago and it only dawned on me lately that it wasn't, completely, my fault... my sister never liked any of my friends (either as a child or an adult.) 2 of my best friends I had since childhood I dumped because she wanted me to. This sounds utterly ridiculous for a grown woman to say but I remember my sister telling me what to write in the text leading to the end of the friendship..... I literally was dictated to as to what to write..... and there you go.. over 20 years of friendship eliminated....but at the time I felt empowered that my sister approved of me and I had her so it didn't matter... now, I know I cannot blame her, it's just recently I had a flashback, so it has been playing on my mind especially as I've had so much self-loathing since the loss of the friendships..... To be honest the friendships I had were pretty one-sided but it would probably have felt better and been less damaging to me if they had been left to flicker out on their own... I'll never know.

I feel a bit tragic going through all this but I recognise it is a lengthy process that needs to happen, I'm glad I'm starting to put the puzzle together and I'm commited to becoming a better happier person and parent. I'm not sure about NC. I'm NC with my dad and I'd say I'm aiming for LC with mum but, ultimately, looking to live my life guilt trip free.:)

It seems like you and your siblings orbit around your mother, sometimes close, sometimes further out. All enmeshed with each other. Same with my family although the roles were much more rigid.

The one sided friendships have been a big feature in my life. Due to a lack of boundaries, self esteem and fear of being abandoned or left out. It's not such a bad thing to kiss these sort of relationships goodbye for your own emotional wellbeing, it's self protection and perhaps a bit of self forgiveness is needed by you. Outliving your 'usefulness' to others is hardly something that is the basis of a friendship but how would you know when you've been brought up to take care of others and your own parent. Your mother is still doing this to you isn't she?

Perhaps you can work some strategies to go low contact with your family. You certainly do need to work through your feelings of guilt and obligation. Your anger is an indication that things are not right. I felt all the things you did when the penny dropped, it's all perfectly normal and understandable. It's not your fault your family are the way they are. You're not tragic. Your childhood is the tragedy and needs to be grieved.

@LondonTowers "And when I reread my post I think, what a cow I am."

No you are not. I totally get why you feel this. It was only when I started seeing a counselor about what I thought was an unrelated issue that I began to realise the reality of the relationship between me and my mother. And it wasn't just my counselor; more recently I was referred to a psychologist who also helped me understand how my mother's behaviour in my teens (and later) has caused anxiety & depression that sometimes makes it difficult for me to function.

So this person has helped destroy my mental health but I still feel like a spiteful cow for getting fed up of her constant mean comments and manipulation tactics.

@Dacquoise you are spot on, I would say that I probably am low contact in comparison to how I was a few years ago but there is still a way to go, I literally can't seem to set a boundary or not feel sick with guilt..and now, like you have said is a risk, my siblings seem to be scapegoating me too.....perhaps its because it's been years and years of love/hate/love that I don't even know who I am.... I guess this is a lengthy process and there is no overnight fix .....if I look back I think I started to get the feeling something wasn't right about 5 or so years ago, it definitely coincided with having my first child.......I was sat on the sofa..... extremely baby- bluesy... and my mum really coldly turned to me and said to pull myself together.... It was completely devoid of emotion.. like completely....its not the first or the last time she has been very cold but when it happens it cuts me to the quick especially as she can be so lovely.....but sometimes she literally has no empathy.....but it's not all the time I do t think?!!

During these last few years I have closely "monitored" her behaviour and read up on bits and pieces and I have picked up on things that are just......weird!

Its definitely becoming a parent myself that started me off questioning things..... I just haven't been able to shake the feeling that something about my mothers parenting is deeply flawed... around the same time I started to notice how she would fawn and paw all over my OH but denigrate me.....it got so bad my OH had to call her out on it (but she just ignores it, switches off or often implies you need to lighten up, after all it was only a joke) she talks very very highly of me to others I am told (I was told this as I said to a couple of people that I was sick of her being a bitch) now shes not so bad, it comes out now and then still, it's more the needy guilt inducing behaviour I get. Anyway now I'm rambling......its like unpicking a very messy, knotted bit of wool!

Thank you again for listening

There are some sad stories of utterly rubbish parenting here. Either ignorant neglect or deliberate manipulation. It’s great we’ve recognised the patterns and are moving to change things.

The witch didn’t come on Thursday and I’m avoiding her. DP has got the jobs of a hospital appointment and taking her to buy Xmas cards. I reckon I can ignore her angling for a Sunday lunch for a month.

@Ieatmarmite Can I ask how your relationship with your sister is? I'm scared mine is disintegrating....saying that I accept the fact that things will be different, after all I see something in mother that they do not (or won't not)

I do hope you are on the mend now too!

pete-walker.com

There is a lot of good focused and shorter pieces of content on Pete Walkers website if you want to dip in and out rather than plough through a whole book.

Having read your posts @MonkeyfromManchester, I am starting to realise the lucky break I got going NC with my DM whilst she is still relatively young and healthy. I won't get stuck with elderly care because I have no intentions of ever going back.

What absolute torture for you, I am so sorry you have to live with your MIL's emotional blackmail and abuse. But it sounds like you are getting some strategies to push back at her false apologies. Good for you.

@LondonTowers I have a good relationship with my sister and I generally saw her about once a week. The thing I missed most about the lockdown earlier in the year was going round to her house, sitting at her kitchen table drinking tea (tea features heavily in both our lives, lol), listening to old punk bands and putting the world to rights (we're both actively into politics).

Since my mother moved there in July I go round a couple of times a week but I spend the vast majority of the time with my mother in the sitting room. It's not the same. I don't get to chat to my sister in the same way anymore and that makes me very sad.

I also wonder if my mother tries to stir it up between me and sis. It's crossed my mind a couple of times when she's said stuff about my sister and her family that she thinks I'll go back and report to my sister to cause bad feeling etc. She caused a rift between me and my brother about 3 years ago and that resulted in me having a breakdown (hence my referral to psychiatrist & psychologist). I'm coming to the conclusion that my mother does love being the centre of drama and this would be one way of creating it. I don't repeat any of my mother's complaints/unpleasant comments to my sister, and I'm getting very good at grey rocking. My sister knows what my mother is like and she seems to be better at not standing for nonsense than me.

It would be very sad if your mother caused you and your sister to drift apart. It's very controlling in a way, separating you from those that you have relationships with until you are left with only the controlling abuser who can continue to suck your joy and energy and making your life revolve around them. I wonder why some people are not just satisfied with having their own lives but have to take that of others too? It's like psychological homicide - oh dear, now it's me who's being a drama lama. Coffee time, I think.

@Ieatmarmite Haha you sound very much like myself and my sister! We're both very political and into old punk bands...and tea... gin too but not so much these days! Anyway, thank you again....think I'm going to have to look into this grey rock thingy.

Me and my sisters have been through thick and thin, I think things are iffy at the moment because I have unintentionally rocked the status quo. Mum is a fragile little thing in there eyes, like she always was in my eyes until recently so I understand they want to protect her.... they don't think she is capable of being a bit sneaky (they quickly forget any meanness she has directed at them and put it down to dittziness or a moment of insensitivity that is completely unintentional)

I imagine your suspicions are right about your mum stiring things up but sounds to me that your sis is switched on, which is great ..and you have an ally in her too! I am sorry though to hear about your brother, I hope things are getting better for you.

Like you my mum says some horrible stupid things about my sisters..... particularly one of them....I would never repeat it because it's a load of bs.....the fact that she speaks very highly of me to others makes me very uncomfortable because it's just not consistent with the person I interact with.

Anyway, talk about head f*

@LondonTowers My mum speaks very highly of me too. She is so consistent at criticising and running other people down, but being nice to their faces, that I think perhaps she is the same about me to other people. It makes me start to doubt myself.

She has this thing about people being greedy. For example my niece has just moved into her first flat and my sister bought her a vacuum cleaner. Nothing expensive, just a basic bog standard ASDAs own. My mother thought it greedy that my niece would accept a vacuum cleaner from my sister and told me how she never took anything off her mother and father, that she'd rather do without. But at the same time she is always trying to get me to accept things from her - a walk around the shops is a nightmare of "Let me buy you that", "I want to buy you that", "Why won't you let me buy you that". I say no because I don't need stuff and it tends to be her taste thrust upon me, for example a frilly blouse which I'd never wear "to make you feel nice and feminine". I feel like asking her if she'd think I'm as greedy as everyone else if I said yes and let my mother buy me something. But then I know the tears would start.

The daft thing is my sister says she's like a magpie who steals other people's "shiny" stuff and my brother says she's like Queen Mary who had a reputation for helping herself to stuff she took a fancy to in other people's houses. One of my nieces had some expensive perfume for her birthday last week and my mum asked her if she didn't want it if she could have it, and at my brother's house recently he showed her a necklace he'd bought for his partner and my mother asked if he could give it to her instead. Priceless.

My brother is similar to your sisters in that he constantly makes excuses for her behaviour. He doesn't spend as much time with her as me and my sister do and his life hasn't been enmeshed with her as much as mine has.

@Ieatmarmite I'm sorry but it makes me cringe and laugh a bit...not laughing at you of course..... but the sheer audacity your mother seems to have and it's so close to home...and the Queen Mary thing...
Whilst my mother is tight as they come she still manages to shower me with unwanted items that she finds/ gets given etc etc... again, it's only recently that I've started to think it's a bit selfish to bestow things on another person that they have clearly said they do not want, are not their taste, not their size, sometimes broken etc.....perhaps its a way to illicit a bit of guilt when they are being 'generous' and you are being 'ungrateful'.....

I've just had a lightbulb moment.....enmeshment ... that's exactly what it was/is. My siblings never were enmeshed with mum per se, when we were growing up it was the abuse we had from our father that eclipsed mothers behaviour. We were living in fear, we didn't really think much about what mum was up to! They are older and they got out early so they never lived at home with mother alone. I did.

Jumping in to say hello on this thread, i've gone NC with my father since the start of lockdown, if anyone remembers the story he did everything possible to sabotage my wedding day last year, having limped past that he threw a strop at the start of lockdown over his misapprehension that I hadnt called him on his birthday.

So lockdown started all about him. I could have got past it and done the usual and overcompensated my feelings because he was being "odd" as I used to call it but it really upset me that in the biggest single event of our lifetime when everything in everyone's world turns upside down he didnt think of anyone but himself and didnt even ask how we were.

So I sat patiently without handing out an olive branch and it's now October. I've not had so much as a phone call since March from him. I think he's an interesting breed because whenever he's rude to people he just expects other people to "get over it" and move along. Not this time.

During lockdown this headspace for me has triggered a lot of memories, its like the moment I put my foot down and started talking to my husband the next day there would be another memory and another and another. I slowly started to restrict him from social media (if he's not adult enough to make the first move after he's been rude then I dont want him sat on the sofa watching what I'm up to) and every time we had posted something he commented in the most overly disney parenting fluffy style "such a shame we can't be there this year, lets all hope this horrible pandemic ends soon so we can come and visit" (er, I dont want you visiting, not until you've apologised for being rude)

Last week he contacted my stepson (not the first flying monkey I've heard of but this time I blew my lid) he wished him a happy birthday and then said "I've not heard from Dolly and Dad for a long time, are they ok? they seem to have come off social media". How dare he. HOW DARE HE? How dare he go through my stepson to try and guilt me into picking up the phone to him.

So I did what my husband has been telling me to do for months. Sit down and write up everything. Every memory, in chronological order, in a way that summarises how I feel and lock a copy away. No need to send it to him, just so that I can somehow process the triggered memories in the right order and step back to see how I feel about it all. And I did it. I came up with 50 reasons why I never want to speak with him again.

And I went to bed that night and had the best night's sleep I have in months, and I somehow feel a week later that my head has cleared and I'm standing up a bit straighter. I have no doubt that I need to go for counselling sometime soon but the first step feels really enlightened now that I've definitely resolved to stay NC.