September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I'm very new here so I dont know your story re wedding but it sounds like a nightmare and I really hope you managed to have a lovely day regardless of your fathers sabotage attempts....I read it as the NC was unintentional but has grown to an intentional NC- I hope Lockdown has made this easier for you.

The fact he has contacted your SS takes the biscuit. Do you think he has any idea he was rude or he just doesn't think it matters?

Hi @Dollyparton3, have you heard that Tolstoy quote All happy families are alike, each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. Not true. The similarities between unhappy families are amazingly similar. My dysfunctional FOO do the wipe their feet on you thing and then expect their victim to 'forget about it'. They can go for years ignoring the person they have upset and abused and then pop up again as if nothing has happened. I can totally understand your fury at your DD. But that's the nature of disordered people. They have no concept of other people, the hurt they cause or have the humility to try to make amends which is why DD is acting oblivious and getting a flying monkey to guilt you.

I do think that the NC thing becomes easier after you've reached your line in the sand moment, which you obviously have. Mine came when my DM was plotting to spring her latest adultery ('new partner') on her children at a family party. This was after a two year smear campaign against husband number two and swearing blind that she wasn't up to her old tricks ie promiscuous, lying, devious, manipulative. Turned out 'new partner' and now husband number three was one of her old boyfriends that she cheated on my dad with. That was my line in the sand moment.

Do try the therapy Dolly. It's been life changing for me and with a list of 50 emotional injuries from your DD, which I am sure will grow as you continue to remember, you have a lot to unpick.

I think that the list is important. But also add to it the other events that have happened to you because you were disfunctionally / inadequately / neglectfully / abusively raised in childhood - because this original wound leaves you open to infection by others, MH, poor choices, zero boundaries and shocking self esteem.

I have 40 on my list where “childhood” is only one.

I am now only b recently NC with my FOO - basically my siblings as my parents are dead - but the behaviours and abuse are exactly the same - and they now target my own children.

Lots of pain in the separation - fuelled by anger that they will never have the pleasure of seeing - but also grief and sorrow. I am just hoping that time and distance will soothe my hurt. But every month there seems to be an “incident” that is a big emotional punch - especially as my teens are being drawn in and clobbered.

I have learnt that boundaries need to be higher and harder. That after each incident I will reverberate for a day or so - and I allow myself that compassion. And then in a day or so I will get up again and keep putting one foot in front of the other.

But sometimes I feel that all of the battering has taken its toll. I don’t feel strong, empowered, robust. I feel drained, exhausted, depleted.

As PP have said - my FOO all do the punch and flounce cycle. And you are expected to never discuss anything and fall back in line a few months later. This time I have not come back and the punishment and manipulation has amplified. I wonder when they will give up?

Hi @Sssloou, time and distance definately soothe the hurt. The first couple of years NC with my FOO were very painful, especially Christmas time. I felt bereft and grieved for a very long time. But it does get better and now I couldn't care less as I have got so used to them not being around. My DB has popped up recently, acting like nothing has happened (ten years and counting!) which threw me a bit but I won't go back. My therapist describes it well, it's like coming out of a warzone, with grenades going off here there and everywhere. You will feel wounded, dazed and disorientated and in shock. It's understandable but you will find peace eventually. Look after yourself.

thanks @LondonTowers we did have a lovely day thank you but it really showed me that there is no end to the narcisism of this man. He tried very hard to ruin the finale of my brides speech the day before knowing full well how hard I'd worked on it having refused to make a speech himself. On the day there were several passive agressive comments made about my appearance, our venue, the money we'd spent (all ours and hard earned) and he kicked off an argment with another family member early evening. He was also very rude to my husband in front of a number of guests before the ceremony. I very nearly walked down the aisle alone and wish I had on reflection but no point in kicking myself now, we still had a lovely day, he was just an embarassment in front of a load of friends, extended family and a few colleagues.

I dont think he sees himself as rude, that's the thing. Any attempt over the years to correct or query him has been met with violent explosive anger, another sign of a narc.

@Dacquoise this is definitely the line in the sand moment. And it's a bit cathartic. It's like stepping back and viewing someone with a different pair of glasses on. And there really is a lot to unpick, I know now that I was raised as an eternal people pleaser with no boundaries for my own self worth or happiness. My disastrous first marriage is testament to that. And that was due in part to me being not only verbally abused but also hugely parentified at an early age. My childhood ended age 7 and I've never made up that lost time. I also never had children of my own for fear that I was everything I was told I was.

I guess I know now why it's taken me so long to get to where I am now in starting to process this and make a decision to go NC and to seek professional suppport. I can't see many specialists in this area but I'm researching.

@Sssloouim so sad to hear your story. We've spoken to my stepchildren and told them with limited detail that we'd rather they dont reply if they get a message, they seem ok with that, all they know is that I'm "working through some stuff and would rather you're not involved". It's tricky with teens as they want to understand but i know they'd be really upset if they knew everything. And I hear you on the "fall back in line" expectation. It's just not something I want to be part of anymore, I heard a line the other day "life is too short to be anywhere that you dont want to be", that's my new mantra. I don't want to be around this person or their manipulation. he will never ever change so i choose not to be near it.

I know now that I was raised as an eternal people pleaser with no boundaries for my own self worth or happiness. My disastrous first marriage is testament to that. And that was due in part to me being not only verbally abused but also hugely parentified at an early age. My childhood ended age 7 and I've never made up that lost time.

Yep, could have written the same verbatim. However, you are very, very lucky to have had your cathartic moment. It can only get better for you as your awareness grows. Scapegoats get to escape the bs. Some poor unfortunates get trapped forever in the dysfunction.

Someone please tell me it's normal to feel yuck quite frequently when you are in the early throws of putting the puzzle together and trying to disentangle.....like, I mean I feel nauseous when something happens, something I would have once thought was normal but now I think isn't.... so I don't just feel anger or resentment I'm starting to feel sick and cringey which is new territory for me.

I just feel so arrested in terms of how to react to things. I've not known who I'm supposed to be for years, I've always looked outside of myself when it comes to reacting to things that make me have a negative emotion..... like I don't trust myself. Im attempting to go low contact and yet I'm not sure how I maintain this on social media and family messenger groups. I know the obvious answer is to leave those groups but I'm not quite ready yet, what I'd really like to do is learn how to react in a boundary setting way, in a way that shows I don't care. I'm not sure I'm making sense, I just dont feel I have anything in my toolbox that can stop me obsessing about slights and hurts....

Anyone have any advice on any quick reads that could help fill up my emotional toolbox?

Sorry if I don't make any sense.
xx

Feelings like fear and disgust can create nausea @LondonTowers, perfectly normal when you come out of the fog. Not sure if I can give you any tips on setting boundaries for LC as it didn't work in my family. It was all or nothing. Get back in line or you're banished!

Do you think perhaps taking some time to sit with these feelings, talking to someone about them might help? How about your OH? Does he 'get' it? You sound overwhelmed at the moment. Assertiveness is a new skill that takes time and practice and there are books you can read to help you to work out your boundaries.

Hi all, have dipped in and out of here for years and, after posting on another topic, have been advised that I'll get more feedback/traffic here.

Beatings, verbal abuse, humiliation, bullying and neglect from/by my mother since I was a small child.

A really horrible woman. Turns the family against each other. Everyone knows what she's like but she has such control. Not me now so much but I feel very resentful so she still has control over me that I'm effectively allowing her to have.

The expectation to do so much for my younger siblings when I was still a child. Yet nothing in return. No support. As an adult I've really needed some support during really bad times and I feel very resentful that I've been left to get on with it all. She lies about me to other family members whilst trying to portray herself as the fairy bloody godmother.

Everyone knows what she's like and what she's done but they're still taken in by her and 'take her side'. Probably they know no different. The atrocious behaviour is normalised to them. Also I was taken in for decades and took 'her side' over my siblings so I understand why they act like they do.

I'm trying to sort some counselling at the moment but really need to talk (and talk!) so appreciate anyone reading this.

Londontowers, if you ever want to chat,
please feel free to message me. I can count on one hand the threads on here that I completely resonate with. Hope you're okay!

Sounds nasty and I am sorry you have gone through so much, do you have much contact with your mum/ dad/ siblings?

Thanks for replying londontowers. I don't think you've had it easy either!

No contact with any of them really. I tried back at the beginning of the year in lockdown. That went well!

I'm at this crossroads weird point where I've been bullied so much and treated worse than I would ever treat anyone, that I want to shout 'ACTUALLY THIS IS HOW IT WAS' Probably onto a losing battle but to live the rest of my life with some kind of peace, I need to do that.

Bigbundlesofhay I think not being in contact with your mother anymore is a very powerful statement. Even if your family doesn’t understand or doesn’t want to understand why this is, they can’t deny that something was really wrong with your childhood for you to go no contact.

I know how important it can be to want your feelings and experiences to be acknowledged by other family members but you can’t force them to see what they don’t want to. Focus on yourself and what is best for you. I think a lot of feelings and experiences can instead feel validated by reading the experiences of others and discussing what happened to you. Just because your family doesn’t want to know about it, doesn’t mean you have to keep it to yourself.

Thank you dontwant. That makes a lot of sense. I will beat this stumbling block but I definitely do need to talk more.

Unfortunately my no contact is just turned back on me and people are told I'm difficult, mad, a trouble maker etc. When I write this down, I could shake myself because why do I give them any space in my head?!!!!

I'm working towards not doing that.

Just

Sorry l was trying to say something so l would be able to comeback . I realise l need to come here but have not got time to post right now but l will come back later after seeing to my narc elderly mother . I have been here before. Thank you for being here for us all. I think the Covid crisis has made everything much worse l had a real panic attack last night 🙄 will return ltr take care everyone 😀

@mrs good luck today!

I have 2 questions I hope someone may have a bit of insight! Is anyone having having/ had EMDR for past traumatic events. What did you think/ feel about it? Also, is it typical of narcissistic personality to alternate between nice behaviour and manipulation. Is this what some might call hoovering? I'm making my way through some good reads but there are sometimes questions that I can't wait to be answered!

It didn't do much for me but that's not to say it wouldn't for you? I was a bit sceptical of it so not predisposed to find the best in it tbh.

Hi @LondonTowers, haven't had EMDR but considering it so would be interested in others' experiences as well. I will have a go at explaining narcissism to you.

Narcissism like all personality traits is on a spectrum and taking care of your own interests is a healthy trait so not all narcissism is a bad. Where it becomes abusive is when a person's wants and needs supersede everyone else's including your own children who are dependent on you. No one is all good or all bad so it's normal for people to sometimes act selfishly and sometimes to act selflessly. However someone high on the narcissism spectrum would generally put themselves first. They may act generous or kind at times but basically their needs ultimately come first. They lack empathy to see how their behaviour affects others and are very defensive when challenged. We all manipulate others at times, however narcissists use it all the time to get to their goal of getting their needs and wants met.

Someone with a personality disorder would be so high on the spectrum they would be unable to understand or to modify their selfishness. It is literally their personality and almost impossible to change.

I am not

Sorry posted too soon. I am not convinced narcissistic people are always aware of what they are doing. Some may deliberately pull you in and then push you out. My DM is more of the caught up in the drama of her emotions and reacts badly when others don't do what she wants. She cannot understand that others are not at her beck and call. Then the guilt tripping and manipulation starts.

@Dacquoise So I've started EMDR but not far into it so would love to hear some success stories but understand its probably not for everyone @Wellhellyeah but what I am excited about is that I'm having a lot of memories and feelings resurface which is supposed to be a good sign.

I know a bit about trauma but the whole narcissist thing is fairly new to me. It is really interesting to learn about! Im starting to see clearly there are elements of it at play in my family but I flip from feeling this strongly to perhaps it's me the narcissist that is just seeing the worst in people because I am just not that nice!

That is exactly what happened to me @LondonTowers. I was convinced that it must be me especially as I started to think I was surrounded by narcissists ie logic would state that I was the common denominator. But my therapist pointed out that to even question yourself that you might be the narcissist shows that you aren't . It takes humility to doubt yourself, something a narcissist doesn't possess. And I was surrounded by narcissists. Scapegoats who people please are a magnet for the selfish.

Also, as a scapegoat you are brainwashed from birth to believe you are ALL bad by your narcissistic parent. Unfortunately it takes a lot of work to rid yourself that default in your brain. Keep reading, processing your memories and feelings, talking and healing. It's long process but ultimately empowering and satisfying. I do believe scapegoats are the lucky ones in the end.