New BF "all lives matter" Me sensitive?

[sensitiveme]

I'm not sure if I'm being overly sensitive here so I'd really appreciate some other perspectives on this.

Was chatting to my new BF last night and I made a comment about one of the "funny" stories he was telling me. The story was totally unrelated to race/racism but I found it a bit mean spirited and said so and then apologised for getting serious about it.

He said well at least you're not one of those shouting about how black lives matter - to which I said well, I am because they do and he said "ugh yeah but ALL lives matter"

We ended up kind of arguing about it because his points were:

1. All lives matter why did they (they?) have to do a huge protest just for POC - I agree all lives are intrinsically valuable, my counter was that obviously systematic racism is a huge problem over there and people are trying to put the focus on how many POC are killed (sometimes for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time) and that discrimination and racism are still rife and they are trying to effect a change in their country.

2. George floyd was a criminal who had been nicked and was going to jail anyway - so apparently death by choking/suffocation was an appropriate punishment for his crime? A white person sworn to protect and serve and in a position of power and authority knelt on his neck for like 9 minutes while he tried to tell them he couldn't breathe until he died!

3. Black people kill more black people than any other group - I'm assuming he was talking about gang warfare but couldn't draw him further on that point. I also pointed out that it is not comparable to racism in the police force which causes lots of POC to lose their lives for either committing small crimes that a white person would never have a gun drawn on them for and sometimes just for being a POC in the wrong place and time faced with racist police officers.

4. he referenced something about how people in Hong Kong have been treating each other recently and said and "that's without there being a racist element to it" - I have no idea what he was referencing but pointed out that you can't compare a situation that has no racist element to one that is entirely grounded in racism because obviously racism is the defining factor!

5. why did they need to protest it at that moment in time? There's a pandemic on and they should have waited till that had blown over first - by the time CV19 has blown over the public focus would have moved on and frankly people are furious that shit like this is still going on.

6. there are other ways to protest rather than by gathering in groups during a pandemic - I agree that there are a lot of ways to protest something but also appreciate the power of a good peaceful march by a massive amount of people who want to make a change. I'm pretty sure they didn't just take to the streets anyway. Also I'm not sure if the US had even been put under lock down measures at that point?

7. Why did there need to be protests here in the UK about BLM? - racism maybe isn't on the same level here as in the US but it still exists here, still affects people and those who protested here were showing solidarity with the protesters over there and also standing up against the racism they may have experienced themselves.

He was getting quite stressed out as the discussion/argument progressed and every time I countered one of his points he moved on to the next one without taking any time to think about what I had said and kept trying to skip passed his point 5 when I asked him how long they should have waited before protesting, and on to point 6.

He finally said we should just agree to disagree and finished by repeating "all lives matter"

The whole night has left me feeling a pretty uncomfortable, wondering if he is a closet racist and thinking there may be more "differences of opinion" like this under the surface. What does he think of women's issues my brain kept throwing at me?

I think I want to tell him that it made me uncomfortable and that maybe we aren't so well matched as we had first thought but I don't want to just come out with "you sound like a racist" because I know he doesn't think he is and obviously that's quite an aggressive statement to make to someone and is bound to cause an argument/bad feeling.

Am I being overly sensitive or is this a bit bigoted/racist? How would you word your discomfort over this without outright calling someone racist?

I used to date a man who gave whatever opinion was the most virtue signally/politically correct. Typical narcissist behaviour.

He was fake, cheated on me, lied to me and dumped me horribly cruelly. I'd far rather a person who can justify their own opinion and respect their right to holding a slightly different opinion to myself. It's not as if he has said something horrifically racist. But if its that important to you, dump him and move on?

My DH came out with 'all lives matter' and I told him he sounded racist. He took great offence and went off to Google for arguments why I was 'wrong'... he read a lot of articles, the penny dropped, his view changed and he came and apologised.

I think me saying he was racist was such a shock that it helped.

I mean I found all of the above pretty horrifically racist. So I guess our definitions differ. The U.K. isn’t as racist as the US? (As a brown person who has lived in both countries I could not disagree more). But hey, it’s your life and relationship.

What white people really mean when they say “All lives matter” is “MY LIFE MATTERS”

Doesn’t look like the two kids f you are going to get on . Everyone is entitled to their own opinion , either you can accept that or not as the case may be .
Agree with the poster above if it’s that important to you , end it and move on

I'd find that racist and not be able to continue with him, I'm afraid. Everything you've listed is symptomatic of him thinking that black people are making a big fuss about nothing. If you disagree with that POV then you are better off apart. If challenged, you can call it a fundamental difference of opinion on a topic that's very important to you and wish him well for the future.

Two of you ,

Hmmm well he doesn’t sound very bright to me. Or very good at expressing his opinions or coping with you not agreeing with him. Keep an eye on this.

Hi IncandescentSilver, thanks I agree I'd rather someone able to stick to their opinions than the other but I like people who can have a discussion and see the other point of view which he didn't seem to want to try.

He wasn't being outright racist, didn't say anything derogatory or anything but I just wondered if maybe the opinion he holds comes from a place of racism.

Would just like some perspective/help with the dumping if I'm not being totally silly about all this - bit pathetic maybe but I think he deserves more than "it's just not working, bye"

I'd dump him now. I couldn't live with that.

ChaBishkoot I'm really, really sorry if I offended you in any way with what I put in my post! I was more meaning that we have less gun violence - not that that makes any racism "lesser" than another. Please accept my apology.

I feel like when people say "all lives matter" - they really just mean "white lives matter". I couldn't really be with someone like that as it's very different to my own viewpoint and I feel like "agree to disagree" should be for ice cream flavours not human rights discussions.

Perhaps he isn't racist, but hets his info from facebook.
That would put me off too though

OP, a lot of racists don’t think they’re racist. Your new boyfriend is spouting ill-considered bilge about why non-white people are their own worst enemies and should wait politely till some moment he considers appropriate to protest police brutality, and you’re worried about sounding ‘aggressive’?

And there was the other mean-spirited ‘funny story’. This relationship op is dead in the water.

@New2thismumthing

I feel like when people say "all lives matter" - they really just mean "white lives matter". I couldn't really be with someone like that as it's very different to my own viewpoint and I feel like "agree to disagree" should be for ice cream flavours not human rights discussions.

Yes. Ask him about migrants and refugees - does he think their lives matter too?

It would be a deal breaker for me.

It depends how important these things are to you. But yes he's racist and probably fairly politically and socially unaware. Both myself and my partner do jobs related to social issues in some way, he studied poli and I studied in aets/humanities. So what I'm saying is for us our social and political views are quite a big part of our identity and there wouldn't be any getting around vastly differing opinions. However I appreciate that this isn't the same for each couple. So what I'd say you need to think about is how big a deal it is in your life? How important are these issues to your identity?

I now think it's more important to judge people by what they do, rather than what they say though.

You could get a ierson who says the most correct things on all of this, who might actually in practice be quite racist. Whereas in practice, your boyfriend might not be racist at all, albeit he might be unable to formulate it in the correct acceptable words.

Dump the racist
He clearly didn't even want to listen to you
What does he think about feminism or is that not even worth asking?
You're clearly incompatible

I don't like the all lives matter crap, but I also don't like BLM. It's a Marxist protest group that would be happy to remove all your rights and everyone else's if it was in power.
I'm afraid his arguments are nisrky correct, and frankly I'm astounded that Hong Kong has passed you by. They were fighting for democracy. They lost. They can now be jailed for criticising the government and have no right to protest. Where's your opinion on that?
Your boyfriend sounds clever and can clearly debate well (apart from all lives matter, which misses the point). I don't necessarily agree with his views as the fact George Floyd was a criminal is also the point.
You don't seem well suited if you're only interested in conforming to the orthodoxy without actually thinking about it.

@sensitiveme

Hi IncandescentSilver, thanks I agree I'd rather someone able to stick to their opinions than the other but I like people who can have a discussion and see the other point of view which he didn't seem to want to try.

He wasn't being outright racist, didn't say anything derogatory or anything but I just wondered if maybe the opinion he holds comes from a place of racism.

Would just like some perspective/help with the dumping if I'm not being totally silly about all this - bit pathetic maybe but I think he deserves more than "it's just not working, bye"

"He wasn't being outright racist" - that's the thing. People don't need to be spouting racial epithets all the time to be racist. Saying 'All Lives Matter' is erasing the struggles Black people face, not just in the US but here and across the world.

It would be a deal breaker for me, but then half my family is black, so it would alert to me to the fact that he thinks that their our/their lives don't matter and they're making a fuss for no reason.

He’s not a closet racist. He’s a blatant racist, and stupid and self-centred to boot. He does mean my life matters as pp have said. Relationship would have died that moment for me.

What?! No he doesn't sound clever! He sounds like he's regurgitating poorly constructed arguments from Facebook! He's not able to embellish on any of his arguments, just goes on to the next point with no discussion. Where the hell are you getting that he's intelligent with good debating skills? Mad.

Nobody is saying only black lives matter. Obviously all lives matter, no one is saying they don't. But black lives matter just as much as white peoples. If you don't believe that then yes, you are a racist.

You have a difference of opinion, you both have different viewpoints and reasons for having them. You both discussed them and still have opposite views. You can't win the discussion by who is right and who is wrong as everyone is entitled to their view. The only thing you can weigh up is whether you wish to be with someone who holds these different outlooks.

Racist and uneducated..... but insists he's right?

Sounds like my ex!