New BF "all lives matter" Me sensitive?

[sensitiveme]

I'm not sure if I'm being overly sensitive here so I'd really appreciate some other perspectives on this.

Was chatting to my new BF last night and I made a comment about one of the "funny" stories he was telling me. The story was totally unrelated to race/racism but I found it a bit mean spirited and said so and then apologised for getting serious about it.

He said well at least you're not one of those shouting about how black lives matter - to which I said well, I am because they do and he said "ugh yeah but ALL lives matter"

We ended up kind of arguing about it because his points were:

1. All lives matter why did they (they?) have to do a huge protest just for POC - I agree all lives are intrinsically valuable, my counter was that obviously systematic racism is a huge problem over there and people are trying to put the focus on how many POC are killed (sometimes for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time) and that discrimination and racism are still rife and they are trying to effect a change in their country.

2. George floyd was a criminal who had been nicked and was going to jail anyway - so apparently death by choking/suffocation was an appropriate punishment for his crime? A white person sworn to protect and serve and in a position of power and authority knelt on his neck for like 9 minutes while he tried to tell them he couldn't breathe until he died!

3. Black people kill more black people than any other group - I'm assuming he was talking about gang warfare but couldn't draw him further on that point. I also pointed out that it is not comparable to racism in the police force which causes lots of POC to lose their lives for either committing small crimes that a white person would never have a gun drawn on them for and sometimes just for being a POC in the wrong place and time faced with racist police officers.

4. he referenced something about how people in Hong Kong have been treating each other recently and said and "that's without there being a racist element to it" - I have no idea what he was referencing but pointed out that you can't compare a situation that has no racist element to one that is entirely grounded in racism because obviously racism is the defining factor!

5. why did they need to protest it at that moment in time? There's a pandemic on and they should have waited till that had blown over first - by the time CV19 has blown over the public focus would have moved on and frankly people are furious that shit like this is still going on.

6. there are other ways to protest rather than by gathering in groups during a pandemic - I agree that there are a lot of ways to protest something but also appreciate the power of a good peaceful march by a massive amount of people who want to make a change. I'm pretty sure they didn't just take to the streets anyway. Also I'm not sure if the US had even been put under lock down measures at that point?

7. Why did there need to be protests here in the UK about BLM? - racism maybe isn't on the same level here as in the US but it still exists here, still affects people and those who protested here were showing solidarity with the protesters over there and also standing up against the racism they may have experienced themselves.

He was getting quite stressed out as the discussion/argument progressed and every time I countered one of his points he moved on to the next one without taking any time to think about what I had said and kept trying to skip passed his point 5 when I asked him how long they should have waited before protesting, and on to point 6.

He finally said we should just agree to disagree and finished by repeating "all lives matter"

The whole night has left me feeling a pretty uncomfortable, wondering if he is a closet racist and thinking there may be more "differences of opinion" like this under the surface. What does he think of women's issues my brain kept throwing at me?

I think I want to tell him that it made me uncomfortable and that maybe we aren't so well matched as we had first thought but I don't want to just come out with "you sound like a racist" because I know he doesn't think he is and obviously that's quite an aggressive statement to make to someone and is bound to cause an argument/bad feeling.

Am I being overly sensitive or is this a bit bigoted/racist? How would you word your discomfort over this without outright calling someone racist?

Run, run, run.

@Khadernawazkhan

Love the virtue signalling! You should listen to the many, many black conservatives in America who despise the whole BLM movement. They give a very different and well articulated perspective.

Can you please provide names and citations for this? Thanks.

This would be a dealbreaker for me. I actually lost a friendship over all lives matter. When she tried to justify it, she came out with some awful things that made me see her in a different light

I had a date with a white Zimbabwean girl years ago. She was so incredibly racist I could hardly bear her company after an hour.

WRT BLM and ALM. I think suggesting to the naive that Black Lives Matter Just as Much as White Lives is the sentiment, it's just not as concise.

@GetUpAgain

My DH came out with 'all lives matter' and I told him he sounded racist. He took great offence and went off to Google for arguments why I was 'wrong'... he read a lot of articles, the penny dropped, his view changed and he came and apologised.

I think me saying he was racist was such a shock that it helped.

That doesn't always work though. These insults are thrown around far too often so that they eventually become meaningless. It can make people defensive and they'll often switch off. Making an argument is more effective longterm.

I agree with some of your boyfriends points, not all of them but some of them.
The ALM annoys me, but then again I dont necessarily agree with BLM movement either.
I would not class myself as racist. I treat people based on how they treat me, their religion, skin colour, place of origin, race, sexual preferences, gender or anything else doesnt come into it. We are all entitled to the same respect and opportunities, and we are all answerable to the same laws and rules and I would do my very best to stand up for someone who was being treated poorly for any reason. The thing is we dont all have to agree on everything. Is he racist? How does he treat people who are of colour, or hold different religious beliefs.
Is he sexist, does he have strong political views?
While always sharing the same views isnt necessary, sharing the same values and moral fibre is. Only you can decide that.

@PinkMonkeyBird

You've dodged one there by dumping him! Good one!

My ex was a closet racist and I have to say that the whole Brexit issue really was a chance for him to validate his opinions. Thankfully I'm with someone now who is on the same page as me with regards to politics and ethics.

Funny enough, Brexit also encouraged my ex to air his racist, sexist, xenophobic, misogynistic, etc, etc views.

The DC were gobsmacked when he spouted some seriously toxic views I didn't realise he held.

For those that have said is he actually racist? How does he treat people? I think its clear that his view on things do make him racist, or at the very least unable to understand the extent of racism, so how he treats someone is irrelevant when his beliefs and view points are already there.

ALM is just another way to stop black people getting a step forward.

Racism is just as much apparent in the UK as it is the US and you wont notice it directly if you are not black or mixed raced or any other ethnicity because most people dont care to see it because it's not happening to them.

In regards to not protesting while in a pandemic, I have had this conversation many times, it's basically toeing the line yet again by saying OK we are heavily suppressed and our children and men are being killed but we will wait until you say its safe to protest. I'm sorry but if my child was killed by anyone because of the colour of his skin I'm protesting, I'm doing whatever I can and I wont stop until I have justice and I wont be told that I have to wait until the government says it's safe to do so.

Was it said by the government it was safe to kill by gun to a person who was not complying? Was it safe to suffocate a man to death while he was pinned to the floor because he was a previously convicted criminal?

A man having any convictions should be judged by law not defined and killed by an officer of the law. This entire movement has been slated and I've heard people say 'well all three rioters are making me feel less sympathetic for their cause' so because there has been riots we can now use that as an excuse to accept the racism??

I think you are right to ditch him and despite what others have said about him probably being OK generally, he has shown who he is and any one of us can put on a different face to the public but deep down he has racist views and that wont change.

The all lives matter totally pisses me of and does how ppl just don't get it.

Maybe the attached can help.

He's racist and possible very closed minded and not too bright!

Under the BLM umbrella:

• sorry. Pressed enter too quick.

Not in mainstream media:

The black policeman who got shot dead defending a business run by black people during the riots/looting in the US.

The white mother shot dead for saying "All lives matter" in the US

The bricks stacked on pallets in rioting areas so to be used as missiles in the US.

The white people attacking white people for being white? Explain that one!

George Soros funding BLM. No divide and conquer going on there. No seree!

No racist beatings of white people in the US?! There's plenty of examples under the BLM umbrella.

How much of the bad goings on of BLM have been reported in mainstream media? None? Yup. None!

How much propaganda and manipulation can one take given the covid scenario?

There's no racism going on here when people object to BLM. Just people taking a step back and thinking the powers that be / media, are manipulating the masses and taking the piss.

I agree with the BLM sentiment, but it's been hijacked by some nasty people and that needs recognition or else a potential race war may happen. Perhaps that's the goal?

Nope. Racist AF. For me racism isn't a valid opinion or a different view, it's just fucking wrong.

My long term FWB started showing offensive views with BLM and the current asylum seekers - as did a family member to a lesser degree. A big difference between them was the ability to debate properly, listen, and show understanding of alternative viewpoints. The FWB insisted he couldn’t be racist as he had lived in London, and abroad as a child. He was collecting his ideas from you tube, Daily Mail and well known racists it turned out and whatever facts I produced were ignored and talked over to show I was wrong. This riled me as much as the views to be honest. I tried to agree to disagree, as it was just a fortnightly catch up normally, but for one it made me massively uncomfortable with myself and secondly he was always ready with some new ‘fact’ to explain how right he was just draining the will out of me within minutes. I’m so glad it wasn’t a full blown relationship that would have had more ties to cut - I’m also thinking that in future I will be quick to check any OLD potential iron’s views. Very glad the family member, for whom I do provide some care, was more rational as that could have been difficult- probably I’m too keen to achieve the ‘I’m right’ status as well! You did the right thing OP, you would start feeling bad about yourself if you had tried to overlook, just think of their good sides, tried to educate. I’d hope it also makes him think, but who knows!

@DoWahDiddy - every one of your examples is just racist bile.

Not in mainstream media:
^The black policeman who got shot dead defending a business run by black people during the riots/looting in the US.^

What has this got to do with whether there is routine appalling racist discrimination in law enforcement that is killing black people in the US? Why does this mean it’s ok to be racist?

The white mother shot dead for saying "All lives matter" in the US
Both groups were armed and pointing guns at each other! Why does this mean it’s ok to be racist?

“The bricks stacked on pallets in rioting areas so to be used as missiles in the US.“

That’s rioting for you! See Northern Ireland for more on political protest, police violence and riots! Why does this mean it’s ok to be racist?

“The white people attacking white people for being white? Explain that one!“
Attacked for being racist! Why should being white be the issue?

George Soros funding BLM. No divide and conquer going on there. No seree!
Glad someone is supporting a fight for racial justice - and racial justice is about social equality- not division!

No racist beatings of white people in the US?! There's plenty of examples under the BLM umbrella.
Plenty of white people are supporting BLM - you desperately want it to be a race war!

How much of the bad goings on of BLM have been reported in mainstream media? None? Yup. None!
You’re quoting the Daily Mail in examples - go figure?

“How much propaganda and manipulation can one take given the covid scenario?“
85% of the press is aligned with right wing interests and comes out in support of conservatives at elections. And reference to propaganda and COVID - seriously? You’re mask is slipping!

“There's no racism going on here when people object to BLM. Just people taking a step back and thinking the powers that be / media, are manipulating the masses and taking the piss.“
Oh - there’s lots of racism going on and you’re trying to gaslight everyone into thinking it’s about something else!

“I agree with the BLM sentiment, but it's been hijacked by some nasty people and that needs recognition or else a potential race war may happen. Perhaps that's the goal?“
You see it in terms of black V white - you see the world as a struggle between races - you believe people ought to be fighting for their own race in such a struggle - and you think a race war would see black people defeated by white supremacy. Which is why the correct response to your objections is solidarity with black people, with BLM.

Being non-racist is not enough. We must be anti-racist in our actions. And that’s why I’m responding rather than ignoring you.

People who pull out the 'black people are more violent than other demographics' thing are either admitting that sociological factors and racism contribute to a bad environment for black people groiwng up, or believe in outdated nazi race theories, Always fascinating to find out which one it is.

This is how you could’ve responded to your partner from the points raised in your first post OP:

1. All lives should matter but the reality is they don’t. When there is a long history of discrimination against a group of people clearly based on the colour of their skin clearly all lives don’t matter. People who say “all lives matter” are ignorant of this fact. Black lives matter is a call to treat all people the same. It’s NOT saying black lives matter OVER everyone else.
2. Ok, George floyd may have he a criminal past. It was for the legal system to hear the evidence and determine his punishment. Not a random white racist cop to give him the death penalty on the streets. White people can be criminals too, should we just shoot them at dawn too?
3. No black person is saying that if a black person is doing something illegal that they shouldn’t be punished. Of course they should. What they’re saying is that if a white person also does the same illegal activity, that they should be punished the SAME WAY. Because it’s fair. Take that white boy in the US that murdered those BLM protestors recently and managed to get arrested alive.
4. There’s no racist element to the situation in Hong Kong because the Hong Kong people/ Chinese are the majority racial group in that country. Black people in the US and UK are the minority group, living in countries with institutions that favour the majority white group and therefore they face discrimination in the form of racism. It’s the power dynamics that forms the racism. So this is a stupid and nonsensical point.
5. Ok yeah, so he’s saying that there’s a time and a place to protest against racism. Good for him and his white privilege.
6. Let him suggest a more effective way to protest. I’m sure POC would love to hear it. Given that they have been trying for decades with little change.
7. Because there’s racism in the UK too. I have to pull me hair out when I hear this comment because people who say there’s no racism in the UK are clearly sheltered and ignorant. Our police may not have guns but do you think racism doesn’t happen? Is there such thing as a god or bad form of racism?

Some people are capable of redemption but your DP sounds like a right arse.

How can non-centralised movement without a leader be 'marxist'? still trying to pull that cold war crap really? get something new

^"You see it in terms of black V white - you see the world as a struggle between races - you believe people ought to be fighting for their own race in such a struggle - and you think a race war would see black people defeated by white supremacy. Which is why the correct response to your objections is solidarity with black people, with BLM.

Being non-racist is not enough. We must be anti-racist in our actions. And that’s why I’m responding rather than ignoring you."^

@Babaoreally

I will tell you how I see things, not the other way around. I do not see it in terms of "black V white", what my point is is that I see people being manipulated into that frame of thinking. Case in point, you're projecting that frame onto me. The question here is does the end justify the means? Ergo, can random innocent people be attacked, not even based on their colour but for the 'cause', ever be justified?

George Soros does not 'fund BLM' you raging antisemite.

@user1471565182

George Soros does not 'fund BLM' you raging antisemite.

www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/us/politics/george-soros-racial-justice-organizations.html

Take a step back. Think political and think why Soros would want to cause and fund disruption. Could it be Soros wants to smear Trumps term in office? Hmmm. Please don't go ad hominem.

@JKRisaqueen
You come across as arrogant and possibly racist.

Hahahahaha he ‘didn’t come out with something horrifically racist’.

That poster a) is wrong and b) has unbelievably low standards.

I'll 'go ad hominem' on anybody who spreads the 'jewish money funding left wing politics' nazi trope, thanks.

'Claims that George Soros funds black lives matter protests are false'

www.adl.org/disinformation-conspiracies-connecting-george-soros-to-protests-and-antifa

''Dripping with poison of antisemitism': the demonization of George Soros'

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/24/george-soros-antisemitism-bomb-attacks

'Why is billionaire George Soros a bogeyman for the hard right?'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-49584157

'Coronavirus, the 'Soros Bio-weapon': How Far Right anti-Semitic Conspiracy Theories Are Infecting Mainstream Politics'

www.haaretz.com/us-news/.premium-soros-bio-weapon-anti-semitic-far-right-coronavirus-theories-go-mainstream-1.8732195