New BF "all lives matter" Me sensitive?

[sensitiveme]

I'm not sure if I'm being overly sensitive here so I'd really appreciate some other perspectives on this.

Was chatting to my new BF last night and I made a comment about one of the "funny" stories he was telling me. The story was totally unrelated to race/racism but I found it a bit mean spirited and said so and then apologised for getting serious about it.

He said well at least you're not one of those shouting about how black lives matter - to which I said well, I am because they do and he said "ugh yeah but ALL lives matter"

We ended up kind of arguing about it because his points were:

1. All lives matter why did they (they?) have to do a huge protest just for POC - I agree all lives are intrinsically valuable, my counter was that obviously systematic racism is a huge problem over there and people are trying to put the focus on how many POC are killed (sometimes for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time) and that discrimination and racism are still rife and they are trying to effect a change in their country.

2. George floyd was a criminal who had been nicked and was going to jail anyway - so apparently death by choking/suffocation was an appropriate punishment for his crime? A white person sworn to protect and serve and in a position of power and authority knelt on his neck for like 9 minutes while he tried to tell them he couldn't breathe until he died!

3. Black people kill more black people than any other group - I'm assuming he was talking about gang warfare but couldn't draw him further on that point. I also pointed out that it is not comparable to racism in the police force which causes lots of POC to lose their lives for either committing small crimes that a white person would never have a gun drawn on them for and sometimes just for being a POC in the wrong place and time faced with racist police officers.

4. he referenced something about how people in Hong Kong have been treating each other recently and said and "that's without there being a racist element to it" - I have no idea what he was referencing but pointed out that you can't compare a situation that has no racist element to one that is entirely grounded in racism because obviously racism is the defining factor!

5. why did they need to protest it at that moment in time? There's a pandemic on and they should have waited till that had blown over first - by the time CV19 has blown over the public focus would have moved on and frankly people are furious that shit like this is still going on.

6. there are other ways to protest rather than by gathering in groups during a pandemic - I agree that there are a lot of ways to protest something but also appreciate the power of a good peaceful march by a massive amount of people who want to make a change. I'm pretty sure they didn't just take to the streets anyway. Also I'm not sure if the US had even been put under lock down measures at that point?

7. Why did there need to be protests here in the UK about BLM? - racism maybe isn't on the same level here as in the US but it still exists here, still affects people and those who protested here were showing solidarity with the protesters over there and also standing up against the racism they may have experienced themselves.

He was getting quite stressed out as the discussion/argument progressed and every time I countered one of his points he moved on to the next one without taking any time to think about what I had said and kept trying to skip passed his point 5 when I asked him how long they should have waited before protesting, and on to point 6.

He finally said we should just agree to disagree and finished by repeating "all lives matter"

The whole night has left me feeling a pretty uncomfortable, wondering if he is a closet racist and thinking there may be more "differences of opinion" like this under the surface. What does he think of women's issues my brain kept throwing at me?

I think I want to tell him that it made me uncomfortable and that maybe we aren't so well matched as we had first thought but I don't want to just come out with "you sound like a racist" because I know he doesn't think he is and obviously that's quite an aggressive statement to make to someone and is bound to cause an argument/bad feeling.

Am I being overly sensitive or is this a bit bigoted/racist? How would you word your discomfort over this without outright calling someone racist?

It doesn’t sound like he was trying to have a discussion with you. He was giving you a List of reasons why he was right many of which were overtly racist and was not open to hearing anything else.

Please get rid!

Maybe he's just an advocate of intersectionality and thinks all movements are for everyone?

@TonyChestnut

Did he mention that some his best friends are black? Cos if he did, he's 100% not a racist!

I think you know what you need to do here.

Thank you that did make me giggle! He is friends with a POC apparently

I think I deleted the post I was going to make saying that I am definitely dumping this guy and will cite "fundamental differences of opinion/viewpoint on issues I feel quite strongly about" and hope that I don't get cornered into having to say "I felt like what you were saying was inherently racist" because I am a bit of a coward.

Well done to GetUpAgain who challenged her husband on it and well done to him for realising he was being racist and making the effort to change and apologise, it's a shame my BF wasn't able to do that, I get the impression he wouldn't give it a seconds thought since we stopped talking about it.

You should listen to the many, many black conservatives in America who despise the whole BLM movement. They give a very different and well articulated perspective
It is fine for a black conservative in America to express a different - and articulate - perspective, but a white man in the UK shouting all lives matter with no actual argument or alternative perspective to back his thoughts up? Come on, you know quite well what that signifies.

Every single person I know who has said "All lives matter" also constantly share "illegal immigrants get £300000 in benefits while our pensioners only get 50p" or "stop coming to our country taking our jobs" type things as well. They do mean their lives matter, and they don't see racism, so they think it's made up or confined to America.

Get rid of this man, you can't change him, and you sound entirely incompatible. He is also probably "alright with gay people as long as they don't flaunt it" too.

But black lives matter just as much as white peoples.

And if that was the slogan there would be nothing to argue about. Unfortunately, by saying BLM some people take that to mean either they matter more, or only BLM.

Most of the attitudes you’ve listed would be deal-breakers for me, particularly the repetition of ‘all lives matter’ and the unwillingness (or so it comes across) to see different sides of the debate. I don’t mean that you should always agree, but I think fundamental disagreement over issues as important as this might be a good indication that you aren’t compatible. I once finished a newish relationship on this basis (bf started to spout views I thought were racist) and was sure in hindsight that I’d done the right thing.

It's a shit slogan.

And yeah, dump him. But why not just say that it's because you believe him to be racist? Bizarre to me that you'll skirt around an issue you say you feel so strongly about

I certainly don't believe All Lives Matter cause they dont! Our world is filled with Child Brides, Pedophiles, Wife Batterers, Animal abusers, animal torturers etc. I will not separate any colour just those who are kind and those who are not!

I would get rid.

ALM is in this case equivalent to NAMLT. It's a blinkered perspective at best (and people can remove their blinkers if they try), just racist/sexist whatever-ist at worst.

If someone cannot see the need and the right for a discriminated against group to peacefully protest the injustices they face, they aren't going to be they type of person who is arguing coherently about the value of all human life and that we should all be treated the same. Worse if they make a big deal out of the fact that group of the discriminated against are exercising their right to peaceful protest for no logical/reasonable reason.

In fact the only semi-logical point he had was about large gatherings during a pandemic not being ideal but I doubt he was coming from a health and safety perspective. From how he was framing his argument it was as a PP said just another tick point on his list of why he was right to say they shouldn't have protested, it was just convenient there was the pandemic to use as an excuse I feel.

I can cope with the blinkered - I'm sure I have and will be about some issues and need someone to help educate me - but I really don't want to know the sexists, racists etc They are not my people and I find them offensive.

I think I may be waffling a bit now!

I saw this on here once and thought it was the perfect way to explain to any “all lives matter” sprouters. Some people need it put simply to understand what is actually being said, I think.

‘Black lives matter’ and ‘all lives matter’ is essentially saying the same thing. If someone was raising money to support a breast cancer charity you wouldn’t say ‘what about skin cancer?’
He’s clearly racist but keeps the worst of his ‘opinions’ vailed behind crappy Facebook meme statements.

vapeinafleshlight I think calling someone racist - even/especially? if it's true - is bound to provoke a strong reaction and I am really not good at confrontation, it makes me feel a bit physically sick so I'd rather break it off with as little confrontation needed. It's not like I want to stay friends after this!

Not that I think he's a dangerous person or anything but people are always saying on here to be careful because you never know what someone is capable of so I guess there's also the additional no need for me to be overly confrontational and potentially provoke an aggressive response. Mainly because I'm a bit of a wet lettuce though.

But black lives matter just as much as white peoples.

And if that was the slogan there would be nothing to argue about. Unfortunately, by saying BLM some people take that to mean either they matter more, or only BLM.

That's because those people are refusing to acknowledge the deep rooted systemic racism behind the situation as it currently exists, within which the slogan is uttered. And I'm sorry but that refusal IS itself an act of racism.

The reason "...just as much as white people's" doesn't need to be included is that nobody has ever doubted that white lives matter. It's self-evident, axiomatic.

The fact that black lives matter should be just as axiomatic. But it isn't, because some people behave as though they don't and society lets them get away with it. That's a brutal, shocking fact that should be completely unacceptable to anyone with any sense of justice or compassion, and it is expressed precisely by leaving out the part about "white lives".

What that does is force people to ask "why on Earth are we even pointing out that the lives of one particular race matter, when it should be obvious that everyone's lives do?" As some are effectively asking on this thread. Once you start realising that that's an actual pertinent question about the reality of the situation, not a rhetorical one, then you're getting somewhere. Because to some people, it isn't obvious.

“Unfortunately, by saying BLM some people thick as pig shit ignorant racists take that to mean either they matter more, or only BLM.”

Fixed that for you.

Aside from what everyone else has already said this bit of your first post is urgh:
"I found it a bit mean spirited and said so and then apologised for getting serious about it.
He said well at least you're not one of those shouting about how black lives matter"

So first of all you had to apologise for being serious and rather than him saying I apologise too etc (which would be normal in that sort of interaction) he accepted your apology and then basically said "well at least you dont think (insert thing you do think here)". So long term I don't think agreeing to disagree is likely to work and thats even aside from whether you want to agree to disagree on racism being a bad thing...

Also, I could be wrong, but the way you describe your discussion it does sound like Hes right and Your wrong because hes a MAN and he was mostly interested in explaining why silly little you was wrong. Those sort of intense debates can be quite diverting early in a relationship but trust me they wear thin really fast.

I have had some 'interesting/surprising ' discussions with friends on this. After years of friendship and never talking about politics, it was a shock to realise where they came from on BLM and we were poles apart. I felt really hurt! but that's what a friendship is, we will stick together and try (not) to discuss this again or of we do very very gently with trust and love. could you do the same, could he change do you think? its so easy to pull the plug on someone but it is possible and the most precious thing in the world to really communicate and make yourself vulnerable and realise how much our opinions are based on a need for an identity or what we have been fed by media or upbringing.

I think it depends what you mean by “racist” having a political opinion doesn’t mean someone is racist. I’ve read a lot into BLM and it seems they’re deep rooted in Marxism - not good - however I agree we definitely do have systemic racism, and of course, the world is littered by people who are definitely racist, from all colours and backgrounds. Establishing the facts here is a good indicator, does he believe he is superior to people of different skin colour? Does he dislike people purely on the basis of their skin colour? Does he believe everyone should have equal rights and opportunity despite their race? All things to consider in my opinion, however if those opinions he has on things matter to you then dump him and run, it’ll only make you feel awful and cause arguments. I recently had a disagreement with my partner on COVID-19 he didn’t like my views and we had a bit of an argument about it, rooted in politics!

Anyone who resorts to the phrase "All Lives Matter" & therefore cannot understand the BLM protests, needs to look up "walking while black", then search for the equivalent "walking while white". Also, running, driving, etc. Look at the statistics etc.

I do believe that all lives matter - but at the moment, they don't, not to everyone. That's the point. By countering the BLM movement with the ALM response, people are essentially saying "we're halfway there, what's your problem?"

@yetanothernamitynamechange

Aside from what everyone else has already said this bit of your first post is urgh: "I found it a bit mean spirited and said so and then apologised for getting serious about it. He said well at least you're not one of those shouting about how black lives matter"

So first of all you had to apologise for being serious and rather than him saying I apologise too etc (which would be normal in that sort of interaction) he accepted your apology and then basically said "well at least you dont think (insert thing you do think here)". So long term I don't think agreeing to disagree is likely to work and thats even aside from whether you want to agree to disagree on racism being a bad thing...

That's a good point too, I hadn't really thought about it that way. I thought he was just trying to keep it light hearted with a "joke" a bout something he thought I'd agree with him about - clearly not great either and very badly misjudged!

The story he told was a third hand tale that was not funny in the slightest and made a woman the butt of the joke - although he didn't see it like that - I didn't laugh and I said I thought it was pretty mean spirited and then explained why it was misogynistic shite.

He did say "I hadn't thought of it like that, I suppose it is" so if that had been the only blooper of our chat I would have given him another shot and just kept my eyes out but casual misogyny and then racism so quickly on top is dealbreaker bingo! That's not someone who made a social faux pas, that's someone who holds extremely distasteful views and I would cross the street to avoid someone like that.

@stovetopespresso

I have had some 'interesting/surprising ' discussions with friends on this. After years of friendship and never talking about politics, it was a shock to realise where they came from on BLM and we were poles apart. I felt really hurt! but that's what a friendship is, we will stick together and try (not) to discuss this again or of we do very very gently with trust and love. could you do the same, could he change do you think? its so easy to pull the plug on someone but it is possible and the most precious thing in the world to really communicate and make yourself vulnerable and realise how much our opinions are based on a need for an identity or what we have been fed by media or upbringing.

If it weren't for the sexist story and then his inability to discuss the value of both sides of the argument with logical and rational reasons why he was taking a stance opposite the BLM ideals of the movement I probably could have.

Some of the PP here have made reasonable arguments against the movement itself and some of the beliefs held by it rather than taking a stance that just ignores the racial element and shouts "I am right, you are wrong"

I could discuss and probably learn some things from those PP. My STBXBF was not open to reasonable debate unfortunately and I don't want to have a relationship with someone who isn't able to do that, racism and sexism aside. They are all deal breakers for me.

I doubt he'll kick off if you call him what he is. Just dump by text, it's easier and less confrontational in this case if you're worried about that.

"Hi, unfortunately due to me not being a massive racist, sexist, brain dead moron I don't think we're compatible. Bye forever"

Block and delete