New BF "all lives matter" Me sensitive?

[sensitiveme]

I'm not sure if I'm being overly sensitive here so I'd really appreciate some other perspectives on this.

Was chatting to my new BF last night and I made a comment about one of the "funny" stories he was telling me. The story was totally unrelated to race/racism but I found it a bit mean spirited and said so and then apologised for getting serious about it.

He said well at least you're not one of those shouting about how black lives matter - to which I said well, I am because they do and he said "ugh yeah but ALL lives matter"

We ended up kind of arguing about it because his points were:

1. All lives matter why did they (they?) have to do a huge protest just for POC - I agree all lives are intrinsically valuable, my counter was that obviously systematic racism is a huge problem over there and people are trying to put the focus on how many POC are killed (sometimes for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time) and that discrimination and racism are still rife and they are trying to effect a change in their country.

2. George floyd was a criminal who had been nicked and was going to jail anyway - so apparently death by choking/suffocation was an appropriate punishment for his crime? A white person sworn to protect and serve and in a position of power and authority knelt on his neck for like 9 minutes while he tried to tell them he couldn't breathe until he died!

3. Black people kill more black people than any other group - I'm assuming he was talking about gang warfare but couldn't draw him further on that point. I also pointed out that it is not comparable to racism in the police force which causes lots of POC to lose their lives for either committing small crimes that a white person would never have a gun drawn on them for and sometimes just for being a POC in the wrong place and time faced with racist police officers.

4. he referenced something about how people in Hong Kong have been treating each other recently and said and "that's without there being a racist element to it" - I have no idea what he was referencing but pointed out that you can't compare a situation that has no racist element to one that is entirely grounded in racism because obviously racism is the defining factor!

5. why did they need to protest it at that moment in time? There's a pandemic on and they should have waited till that had blown over first - by the time CV19 has blown over the public focus would have moved on and frankly people are furious that shit like this is still going on.

6. there are other ways to protest rather than by gathering in groups during a pandemic - I agree that there are a lot of ways to protest something but also appreciate the power of a good peaceful march by a massive amount of people who want to make a change. I'm pretty sure they didn't just take to the streets anyway. Also I'm not sure if the US had even been put under lock down measures at that point?

7. Why did there need to be protests here in the UK about BLM? - racism maybe isn't on the same level here as in the US but it still exists here, still affects people and those who protested here were showing solidarity with the protesters over there and also standing up against the racism they may have experienced themselves.

He was getting quite stressed out as the discussion/argument progressed and every time I countered one of his points he moved on to the next one without taking any time to think about what I had said and kept trying to skip passed his point 5 when I asked him how long they should have waited before protesting, and on to point 6.

He finally said we should just agree to disagree and finished by repeating "all lives matter"

The whole night has left me feeling a pretty uncomfortable, wondering if he is a closet racist and thinking there may be more "differences of opinion" like this under the surface. What does he think of women's issues my brain kept throwing at me?

I think I want to tell him that it made me uncomfortable and that maybe we aren't so well matched as we had first thought but I don't want to just come out with "you sound like a racist" because I know he doesn't think he is and obviously that's quite an aggressive statement to make to someone and is bound to cause an argument/bad feeling.

Am I being overly sensitive or is this a bit bigoted/racist? How would you word your discomfort over this without outright calling someone racist?

I wouldn't continue to date someone who said these things. It's your decision but you're not being too sensitive.

Racism doesn't directly effect me but I do not want to associate with anyone who holds to racist views. Whilst I'm aware that racism exists and is therefore still a massive problem I feel strongly that it shouldn't exist and that people should be treated fairly regardless of skin colour or any other factor that sets them apart from another group of people. We are all human and deserve to be treated fairly with out discrimination or fear for our person and lives.

Tootletum - I missed the Hong Kong democracy fight because I've come away from the news for a while because it was starting to get me down - all the horrors people visit on each other.

I think governments who jail citizens for trying to fight for their rights are very scary and clearly abusing power, that is terrible!

I'm not interested in conforming to the othodoxy without thinking about it, but I hold to the opinion that POC are being discriminated against and sometimes killed and that racism is totally wrong and systematic racism in authorities such as government and public forces should be weeded out ASAP. It seems a bit strange for you to say that when my essential point boils down to "racism is bad and should not exist" I would say that is a given and not me conforming to anything other than basic humanity for other people.

Racist or stupid.

Perhaps explain to him is that BLM is saying Black lives matter TOO. We know white lives matter, it’s obvious from the world around us. BLM isn’t excluding anyone just saying that Black lives matter, which they do.

Maybe then you’ll find out if racist or stupid.

I'd be fascinated to see if he still thinks that all lives matter in relation to refugees in danger in tiny boats, or being trafficked.

He certainly sounds racist and not vey bright. I don't think I could stay with someone like that.

introvert88 sorry I can't quote you for some reason

"that's the thing. People don't need to be spouting racial epithets all the time to be racist. Saying 'All Lives Matter' is erasing the struggles Black people face, not just in the US but here and across the world."

This is what made me uncomfortable you have articulated it perfectly, thank you.

I'm sorry everyone I'm struggling to keep up with the discussion it's moving so quickly!

To be honest I didn't think he was coming across in an intelligent or articulate way during all this.

I struggle a bit with worrying if I'm overthinking things so I want to thank everyone again for clarifying this for me and add that it's been really helpful to know that my instincts were right here when so frequently I have got it wrong.

The good thing is that this is still a new thing so will not sting to break it off. I'm glad I found out now rather than when I had become emotionally attached - I'd still have broken up with him but I would probably been a bit sad about it by then.

BLM hasn't gone very well as a movement and it's an ill- considered slogan. Critical race theory suggests that white people should be dominated to compensate for the history of injustice. I don't think much of BLM and I do think the spam ALM at least strives for equality and justice. I don't like BLM but it doesn't make me racist - and in answer to a pp, I provide a lot of support to refugees and migrants in many different ways in my life and work. Life is complicated.

He sounds like a proper wrong 'un. Get rid.

How new? Fling him back where he belongs. You can't polish a turd!

I'd think he has opinions that are influenced by white privilege & systemic racism. I'd want to know what other opinions he holds, and how they influence his behaviour & actions.
I have friends who hold different political & moral views to me, in friendship I can draw my boundaries & agree to disagree - in a romantic relationship where I'm putting everything on the line & trying to forge a life partnership, I can't do that.
This would be a massive issue for me in your position - not just his opinions but the way it seems he doesn't respect your views, or is willing to debate openly. He's just trying to point score against you.

Ditch him

Love the virtue signalling! You should listen to the many, many black conservatives in America who despise the whole BLM movement. They give a very different and well articulated perspective.

I'd be very wary of him too. Unless he can reflect and discuss properly he's probably not for you. I'd also be interested in his views on gender and sexuality. Often, not always, racism goes hand in hand with general ignorance and vile views.

Reading what you wrote, he sounds like a racist.

You don't seem well matched really. Don't try to force your opinion on him. Not everyone is drinking the current woke cool aid. Perhaps you would be better off with someone who shares your opinions.

JKRisaqueen I understand what you are saying but his problem wasn't with the group behind BLM or their party line as it were, his problem very much seemed to be POC protesting when clearly they should shut up and put up regardless of what injustices they face and agree with those saying ALM in the way he was saying it is just another way of saying white/my life matters (most) - which I do find racist at the core/selfish.

Annabellerina Not that it really matters other than I guess to make me feel a little better about not being an all knowing psychic who should have seen this coming but new enough that we were still getting to know each other, it hadn't become serious yet.

Hmm yeah @JudyGemstone I think I didn't quite read it all in enough detail. Him getting agitated is quite a bad sign. I think maybe (similarly to me replying to stuff on mumsnet whilst feeding a baby half asleep) he expressed himself quite poorly, and maybe he is a bit racist. I stand corrected, I just thought his one good point was that people are generally quite shit to each other, mostly because they want power. I find the death of democracy sad, and BLM as an organisation (as opposed to the phrase) is not interested in democracy. That's the interesting angle but his statement that George Floyd was a criminal misses the point so completely that he basically saying his life matters less. As I say, by that reasoning he should also support capital punishment - which to be fair he probably does. Altogether doesn't sound like a charmer. Apologies for my poor response.

The point about George Floyd being a criminal is basically him saying that the moment you're black and have ever served a sentence for anything, you're fair game and it's OK for the police to kill you. I couldn't be OK with someone who thought that.

Meanwhile the killings are still happening, and Kyle Rittenhouse is considered a hero. I'd ditch the boyfriend, and I'd disregard the apologists on this thread.

Supporting the argument Black Lives Matter doesn't mean you have to endorse everything that the BLM organisations are fighting for.
Most people have the ability to distinguish them without labelling any anti -racist arguments 'woke koolaid'.
There are black conservatives in the UK who also hold different views - Courtney Lawes is one example - but something tells me the OP's boyfriend isn't thinking of them with his arguments.

Deal breaker. He sounds like a total moron.

Discussions around capital punishment & the welfare state should help further reveal his true colours.

I really don't think I'm woke or virtue signalling for being anti-racist but will agree to disagree with those that think I am. To be absolutely fair I clearly don't know much about the movement behind the BLM "group" but I am still absolutely against discrimination and racism.

To those wondering what his views are on refugee/immigrant sex and gender issues - that was a concern although in honesty the thought that came directly to my head (before you all here pointed out the others) was feminism etc - probably because that is the one that directly effects me, narrow-minded as that may be - but they are also issues that would colour my view on a person who had differing opinions to mine.

Did he mention that some his best friends are black? Cos if he did, he's 100% not a racist!

I think you know what you need to do here.

All his points are racist and you did well to question him on them. That would be enough for me to end it.
But on a practical level, if he's not willing to listen to you and jumps from point to point without any thought or consideration then a relationship would be a nightmare- even without the racism!

@Tootletum

Hmm yeah *@JudyGemstone* I think I didn't quite read it all in enough detail. Him getting agitated is quite a bad sign. I think maybe (similarly to me replying to stuff on mumsnet whilst feeding a baby half asleep) he expressed himself quite poorly, and maybe he is a bit racist. I stand corrected, I just thought his one good point was that people are generally quite shit to each other, mostly because they want power. I find the death of democracy sad, and BLM as an organisation (as opposed to the phrase) is not interested in democracy. That's the interesting angle but his statement that George Floyd was a criminal misses the point so completely that he basically saying his life matters less. As I say, by that reasoning he should also support capital punishment - which to be fair he probably does. Altogether doesn't sound like a charmer. Apologies for my poor response.

Tootletum No problem! Yes his point about George Floyd being a criminal really made me sit up! Even if people commit a crime they still have rights and one of the ones that shouldn't have to be made is that they have the right not to be killed in the street by someone who didn't like the colour of their skin!

Feminism would be a good one, requiring a nuanced debate, as radfem opinions often get lumped in with conservative r/w views on gender roles, so it takes good open discussion to pick them apart, and more lib fem views can also easily be dismissed as woke virtue signalling unless someone is really willing to listen to the views behind those beliefs.