New BF "all lives matter" Me sensitive?

[sensitiveme]

I'm not sure if I'm being overly sensitive here so I'd really appreciate some other perspectives on this.

Was chatting to my new BF last night and I made a comment about one of the "funny" stories he was telling me. The story was totally unrelated to race/racism but I found it a bit mean spirited and said so and then apologised for getting serious about it.

He said well at least you're not one of those shouting about how black lives matter - to which I said well, I am because they do and he said "ugh yeah but ALL lives matter"

We ended up kind of arguing about it because his points were:

1. All lives matter why did they (they?) have to do a huge protest just for POC - I agree all lives are intrinsically valuable, my counter was that obviously systematic racism is a huge problem over there and people are trying to put the focus on how many POC are killed (sometimes for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time) and that discrimination and racism are still rife and they are trying to effect a change in their country.

2. George floyd was a criminal who had been nicked and was going to jail anyway - so apparently death by choking/suffocation was an appropriate punishment for his crime? A white person sworn to protect and serve and in a position of power and authority knelt on his neck for like 9 minutes while he tried to tell them he couldn't breathe until he died!

3. Black people kill more black people than any other group - I'm assuming he was talking about gang warfare but couldn't draw him further on that point. I also pointed out that it is not comparable to racism in the police force which causes lots of POC to lose their lives for either committing small crimes that a white person would never have a gun drawn on them for and sometimes just for being a POC in the wrong place and time faced with racist police officers.

4. he referenced something about how people in Hong Kong have been treating each other recently and said and "that's without there being a racist element to it" - I have no idea what he was referencing but pointed out that you can't compare a situation that has no racist element to one that is entirely grounded in racism because obviously racism is the defining factor!

5. why did they need to protest it at that moment in time? There's a pandemic on and they should have waited till that had blown over first - by the time CV19 has blown over the public focus would have moved on and frankly people are furious that shit like this is still going on.

6. there are other ways to protest rather than by gathering in groups during a pandemic - I agree that there are a lot of ways to protest something but also appreciate the power of a good peaceful march by a massive amount of people who want to make a change. I'm pretty sure they didn't just take to the streets anyway. Also I'm not sure if the US had even been put under lock down measures at that point?

7. Why did there need to be protests here in the UK about BLM? - racism maybe isn't on the same level here as in the US but it still exists here, still affects people and those who protested here were showing solidarity with the protesters over there and also standing up against the racism they may have experienced themselves.

He was getting quite stressed out as the discussion/argument progressed and every time I countered one of his points he moved on to the next one without taking any time to think about what I had said and kept trying to skip passed his point 5 when I asked him how long they should have waited before protesting, and on to point 6.

He finally said we should just agree to disagree and finished by repeating "all lives matter"

The whole night has left me feeling a pretty uncomfortable, wondering if he is a closet racist and thinking there may be more "differences of opinion" like this under the surface. What does he think of women's issues my brain kept throwing at me?

I think I want to tell him that it made me uncomfortable and that maybe we aren't so well matched as we had first thought but I don't want to just come out with "you sound like a racist" because I know he doesn't think he is and obviously that's quite an aggressive statement to make to someone and is bound to cause an argument/bad feeling.

Am I being overly sensitive or is this a bit bigoted/racist? How would you word your discomfort over this without outright calling someone racist?

@pointythings

Again you view the BLM movement as a single entity who all behave in the same way! In every political movement, irrespective of its place on the political spectrum, there will be some who are their to further their own interests. Nobody disputes that bad things have happened. But you seem to think that because those things have happened, all the people involved approve of those things, condone them, even participate in them. That's a simplistic view. Life isn't black and white (oh, the irony!).

BLM haven't condemned them, either. I see a whole lot of manipulation, virtue signalling and propaganda as well.

'Virtue signalling' another in Thicko Bingo.

Cheers

@simone1863

'Virtue signalling' another in Thicko Bingo.

Cheers

Take the knee, darling.

P.S. Don't forget your mask!

Im a bit late to the party on this one, but a few years ago I was dating someone and the odd comment would pop up that always got my back up and I thought I was being sensitive.

He would say things like

"Im not being sexist but well women have nothing to talk about after they have a baby, aside from the baby"

"I'm not being funny but I dunno I just dont think this amount of people are born Gay I think they do it for a statement"

"All lives matter"

It was at this point, I thought holy crap, I'm dating a man from the 50s whose sexist, homophobic and racist.

If you feel uncomfortable in your core, about the things he said now, your gut is trying to tell you hes not the guy for you x

Ah well, they haven't condemned it explicitly, so they must agree with it .

The term 'virtue signalling' is the last word of a right winger who has run out of rational arguments. Apparently it's OK for police officers to murder black people, because said black people are not saintly and perfect. It's OK for Trump to encourage people to vote twice, because Biden once changed his mind on abortion. The left is always, always, always held to a higher moral standard than the right. The hypocrisy is rank.

@pointythings to be fair all I’ve heard the last few months is ‘if your not actively doing something then you are part of the problem.’ Do you also pull this face at that statement?

@DoWahDiddy

Serious bit of projection there duck.

Just because you believe everything you read on Facebook, doesn't mean everyone else does.

Do a bit of thinking. Why exactly is Soros such a threat? And why exactly do all the people you listen to seem to dislike Jewish academics?

@pointythings

Ah well, they haven't condemned it explicitly, so they must agree with it .

The term 'virtue signalling' is the last word of a right winger who has run out of rational arguments. Apparently it's OK for police officers to murder black people, because said black people are not saintly and perfect. It's OK for Trump to encourage people to vote twice, because Biden once changed his mind on abortion. The left is always, always, always held to a higher moral standard than the right. The hypocrisy is rank.

I can see where you're trying to get me to... and it aint gonna work! Please see my stance from a King vs Malcolm X point of view. No, it isn't okay for police officers to murder black people. And it isn't okay for BLM to riot and kill. I'm not right wing or left wing. Can't you see BLM are being used in a bigger agenda or do you just froth at the mouth at anyone who doesn't blindingly support BLM?

[quote simone1863]@DoWahDiddy

Serious bit of projection there duck.

Just because you believe everything you read on Facebook, doesn't mean everyone else does.

Do a bit of thinking. Why exactly is Soros such a threat? And why exactly do all the people you listen to seem to dislike Jewish academics? [/quote]
I'm not on facebook, so you can take memes out the equation.

I came on to say I would ditch this fool and not look back - delighted to see you've done just that.

And we've debated Soros. Long story short, Soros does fund BLM to get them to cause death and destruction in order to make Trump look incompetent so as to improve Democrat ratings for the forthcoming election. Tadaa!

Kitmerow yes, I do. It does depend on how you define 'actively doing something' though. For example: poverty. I am financially comfortable. Since it is not possible in the UK to pay more tax to HMRC, I have chosen to foster a disadvantaged teenager and pay his way through university instead. On police racism in the UK, all I can realistically do is write to my MP. He probably loathes me by now.

And still you are treating BLM as a block of people who all think exactly the same things!

How do you know Soros funds BLM in order to make them riot and kill?Maybe he funds them because - let's see - he doesn't like the idea of police killing people because of the colour of their skin? Maybe he disapproves of the rioting as much as you do? Have you asked him? And yes, he probably does want to make Trump look bad. I would encourage people to make Trump look bad - trump is bad. He has described American war dead as 'suckers' and 'losers'. If you support someone like that for another term as presidency then I would suggest you are the one lacking moral integrity.

oh we're doing the 'im not left or right' thing now are we? Its all so bloody original.

This would make a great biopic by the way. 'I used to be a violent scumbag charged with GBH, but I got some moral intergirty by spouting Far right jew hating conspiracy theories on parenting websites'.

@pointythings

And still you are treating BLM as a block of people who all think exactly the same things!

How do you know Soros funds BLM in order to make them riot and kill?Maybe he funds them because - let's see - he doesn't like the idea of police killing people because of the colour of their skin? Maybe he disapproves of the rioting as much as you do? Have you asked him? And yes, he probably does want to make Trump look bad. I would encourage people to make Trump look bad - trump is bad. He has described American war dead as 'suckers' and 'losers'. If you support someone like that for another term as presidency then I would suggest you are the one lacking moral integrity.

Okay, lets go with that. Are all American police racist and kill black people? If I ask how many white people get shot and killed by American police I'd probably get flamed, however, let's stick to the agenda for stirring up racial tensions. Can't you see it? Are you wise enough to see the manipulation?

@user1471565182 : I think you've got issues.

@dowahdiddy

Trump was of course absolutely smashing it until earlier this year wasn't he. Nice swerve on the anti-Semitic point btw.

Ah, now we have it - you are denying that there is no racism in US policing. You are denying that black people are treated less favourably than white people by the police in the US. You believe the problem doesn't exist, that's it's not systemic but is just a few black apples. And you are a Trump supporter too.

Can't argue with a true believer.

I wonder who should be believed on this stuff? People who have done seven plus years at university or... the former goalkeeper of Hereford United

@pointythings

Ah, now we have it - you are denying that there is no racism in US policing. You are denying that black people are treated less favourably than white people by the police in the US. You believe the problem doesn't exist, that's it's not systemic but is just a few black apples. And you are a Trump supporter too.

Can't argue with a true believer.

See, you've just fallen into the very thing you accused me of,

"seeing it as anything other than a monolithic entity which condones violence." Pg 6 of this thread.

Please don't try to put words in my mouth. As I asked another poster, does the end justify the means?

@simone1863

I wonder who should be believed on this stuff? People who have done seven plus years at university or... the former goalkeeper of Hereford United

You do know they do degrees in football chants these days, don't you?!

No, your original post asked 'are all American police racist and kill people?' To which the answer is obviously no. That does not mean however that everything is therefore OK and that there should be no change. Black people suffer disproportionately from racist violence by US police. Nothing has been done. People are angry and this anger is justified. The violence is of course not justified - but if there are no protests, nothing will change.

Does the end justify the means? Where the means is protest without violence - and 93% of these protests pass off without violence - abso-bloody-lutely. You seem to think that because there is some violence, the protests should stop completely and the whole thing should just be abandoned.

What most of the protesters want is better policing, not no policing. Police training in most of the US is an average of 26 weeks. In my native Netherlands it's 2 years minimum - that is for someone who will not be out and about on the streets with a firearm. For police officers who will be using firearms, the training is 3+ years. Oddly enough there doesn't seem to be a huge issue with police violence against black people in the Netherlands. Draw your conclusions.

@Temp123999 you come across as judgemental and possibly stupid

Black people suffer disproportionately from racist violence by US police.

Fair point. Context is something to consider, though. Is it a societal problem in areas in social decline with a high black percentage or evenly distributed throughout the country? Context is everything. It's easy to twist things for political gains as what I suspect BLM is being used for.

Since January 01, 2015, 4,728 people have died in police shootings and around half, 2,385, were white. 1,252 were black, 877 were Hispanic and 214 were from other racial groups. As a share of the population, however, things are very different. Black Americans account for less than 13% of the U.S. population but the rate at which they are shot and killed by police is more than twice as high as the rate for white Americans.

From: www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2020/05/28/police-shootings-black-americans-disproportionately-affected-infographic/#48382e5559f7

And fair point about police training comparisons in different nations. If I remember right I saw something about US police being trained to put the knee on the neck. That's wrong. I can't argue that.

However, the official BLM line is to defund the police:

blacklivesmatter.com/defundthepolice/

How do you see that playing out given the current scenario? Isn't that a recipe for anarchy?

@GetUpAgain

My DH came out with 'all lives matter' and I told him he sounded racist. He took great offence and went off to Google for arguments why I was 'wrong'... he read a lot of articles, the penny dropped, his view changed and he came and apologised.

I think me saying he was racist was such a shock that it helped.

Good for you! At least he read up... fair play to him.