Men are not born to believe they are superior so what is going wrong to create so many abusers?

[Fightingback16]

Bit of a large assumption but even if you look on here there are so many women being abused.

In my example it was my ex husbands fathers doing as he was abusive.

Why are so many men narcissistic what is going so wildly wrong out there. How are mothers (And the rest of the family) raising sons to be so damaged?

And I would say role models, accountability and some way (can't be done really) of making people consistent with their behaviour in public and in private. Like publicly 'feminist' men who get lap dances in private and laugh off their mates shagging girls on holiday because banter. Then tweet about being an ally for women who are abused.

Men are not women. There will always be a difference in views. You cant be a feminist man. You can just be an advocate. Men dont understand being a woman and it is nonsense to suggest we do.

What needs redefining is 'masculinity' and that requires something akin to a feminist movement. Do you honestly expect feminists to allow that to happen?

'Well the buck stops with me as a women as a wife as a mum. '

No. The buck stops with society.

This is the real issue. Over the last X years the passing of responsibility from society to individuals. Usually women.

That's not going to work.

It's piecemeal and a cop out.

OP
'My husband said his father always drilled in to him about making sure you aim high and earn money'. These things aren't mutually exclusive with being a decent person though, are they. You can aim high and earn a lot of money and still be amiable/ empathetic/ support charities and whatever.

I assume you mean he was taught to be cold and ruthless. That's pretty rare though.

My observation is that most men want a good relationship, want kids, love their kids.

What many don't want is the work that goes with it. And there were have s problem.

I have said to DH and observed generally that at some deep down engrained level, men don't feel housework is their problem. Eg at work. Meeting. The men just leave their shit everywhere. It's not a conscious thing. It's just not their problem.

It gets cleaned up by Women. Irrespective of role.

That kind of unconscious expectation. It's weird to see tbh.

I’m sorry if I have offended anyone. Society includes women and mothers and I was just wondering what role (if any) being a mother myself we had in the potential making of abusive men, amongst all the other factors. We can’t stand back and say it’s all men nothing women can do at all. I can have a large influence as a mum on my daughter. I can raise her to have an understanding of how some people may try and manipulate her. I can’t change society only how she views it. I do believe I have the potential to create a daughter who views a man as her saviour therefore feeding into the view that men are superior.

I have to be a mum and dad to my daughter, hopefully I can get it right and create a strong, independent women who sees her own worth without a man and that when she meets one she will see herself as equal. Hopefully she will meet a man who has been raised to treat her as equal, but it seems that society has a problem with this.

The book sapiens has a really interesting section in it in why the patriarchy exists and is so widespread. There are loads and loads of reasons and it's now so ingrained and widespread that it's going to be very difficult to get equality

The majority of my daughters Disney films are a man rescuing a women...

@NiceGerbil

'Well the buck stops with me as a women as a wife as a mum. '

No. The buck stops with society.

This is the real issue. Over the last X years the passing of responsibility from society to individuals. Usually women.

That's not going to work.

It's piecemeal and a cop out.

OP
'My husband said his father always drilled in to him about making sure you aim high and earn money'. These things aren't mutually exclusive with being a decent person though, are they. You can aim high and earn a lot of money and still be amiable/ empathetic/ support charities and whatever.

I assume you mean he was taught to be cold and ruthless. That's pretty rare though.

My observation is that most men want a good relationship, want kids, love their kids.

What many don't want is the work that goes with it. And there were have s problem.

I have said to DH and observed generally that at some deep down engrained level, men don't feel housework is their problem. Eg at work. Meeting. The men just leave their shit everywhere. It's not a conscious thing. It's just not their problem.

It gets cleaned up by Women. Irrespective of role.

That kind of unconscious expectation. It's weird to see tbh.

This is a really good point. The language society uses is so important too.

I loathe hearing that a man "helps" around the house. It is his house too. He is not "helping", he is tidying / cooking / cleaning just like his partner does.

And my biggest bugbear is when a mother is out and people coo over the fact her partner is "babysitting" for the night. Babysitting his own kids. So just being a parent. I've never encountered a man being out and people saying his female partner is home "babysitting", she is just "at home".

Also "aren't you lucky he's such a hands on dad" about good fathers. Firstly, a mother should be able to expect her partner to parent his own children with kindness and genuine interest. That isn't a high bar to set. It implies the default is that a mother should be the one doing all parenting and therefore a man doing and of it is doing it for her, shouldering her burden, doing her a favour. Again, I've never seen people say to a father, when his female partner is running around with the kids "aren't you lucky she's such a hands on mum." Hands on is what parents should be, it isn't celebrated when women are the ones doing it, it's expected.

Finally, the default thing. A kid is sick at school, both parents work, the mother is the one called first. Stuff like that feeds into the toxicity of the patriarchy because it reminds women that whatever they do outside of the home, they can be called back to their rightful place. It has to stop but sometimes I feel like it's all going backwards. Maybe that's just because I'm in my 30s now and fighting it is exhausting.

In all fairness, it is sometimes bad parenting that raises children this way. They aren't born thinking these things, so where else do they learn from? Who are the two most influential people in a child's lives? Who do they look to on behaviour? Their parents.

I'll give you an example. Knew a guy once who was a classic love bomber, highly manipulative, used to getting his own way, never told no. His dad would just throw money at him to shut him up. His mother did nothing to prevent the bad behaviour, neither of them did. They both failed him. He's now a fucked up person probably incapable of change, because neither of them will teach him. And he's not the only one out there. Both parents were and are useless. He may one day end up behind bars, if they can't throw money at the problem.

People can blame society all they want, blame games for violence, blame stereotypes for rape etc. But I think the reality is the family the person grew up in. You very rarely meet someone in prison that comes from a wealthy background, with caring parents who disciplined them when necessary. And if you do, they probably have a personality disorder of some kind, which is sadly genetic so there's sod all you can do. Bad parenting is the root cause of most issues, people just don't want to accept it. I can see it happening to a member of my own family, bad parenting is sending that person off the rails. Maybe they'll finally listen when they are in prison, but doubtful. By then though, it's often too late, the damage is done. Much harder to change a person then unless they want to change.

But those parents are also influenced by societal patriarchy (as we all are) which can't be dismantled while people don't challenge it.

So while I agree poor parenting causes many problems, but part of poor parenting is perpetuating the toxicity of patriarchy.

Many people do that unknowingly of course and it's a chicken and egg situation.

They can be influenced by it yes, if they choose to be. But they are adults and can think for themselves, decide that they don't agree with what the majority thinks. The problem is people are basically like sheep and just copy each other. It's easier to conform to it than to be the one to stand out.

I can't blame society alone for that reason, or even give society the majority of the blame. Someone the other day posted on FB about how her son had been caught doing something bad, she was looking to speak to the man who spotted it and apologise for her sons behaviour and get her son to apologise too. How often do you see that happening in comparison to how often you see kids throwing stones at cars etc. If the parents don't care and won't reprimand their child, that is their fault. It's not societies, it's the parents fault. And I doubt that they don't know, I've seen parents sticking up for their child's right to be a vandal. They do know, they just don't want the hassle of telling them off.

How many teachers deal with cheeky kids whose parents think they are angels, raise your hands.

@KeepingPlain

They can be influenced by it yes, if they choose to be. But they are adults and can think for themselves, decide that they don't agree with what the majority thinks. The problem is people are basically like sheep and just copy each other. It's easier to conform to it than to be the one to stand out.

I can't blame society alone for that reason, or even give society the majority of the blame. Someone the other day posted on FB about how her son had been caught doing something bad, she was looking to speak to the man who spotted it and apologise for her sons behaviour and get her son to apologise too. How often do you see that happening in comparison to how often you see kids throwing stones at cars etc. If the parents don't care and won't reprimand their child, that is their fault. It's not societies, it's the parents fault. And I doubt that they don't know, I've seen parents sticking up for their child's right to be a vandal. They do know, they just don't want the hassle of telling them off.

How many teachers deal with cheeky kids whose parents think they are angels, raise your hands.

I agree with you on most points, I just don't see how that undermines the argument re the patriarchy. Society is people, people are society. I agree there's lots of poor parenting that causes and allows bad behaviour. Some of that bad behaviour includes sexism and misogyny - those things I think are caused by people perpetuating the patriarchy that has become society's framework. Of course there are problems that aren't to do with the patriarchy but I was discussing the patriarchy. I totally agree people have individual agency and must be accountable for their choices, that doesn't mean we can't also recognise what influences those choices - that doesn't take away their accountability, it just acknowledges a contributing factor behind it. I might not be explaining myself very well, sorry.

I think society has lost its connection with self and others, a lot of people lack empathy. I’ve spoken a lot to people about abuse lately ( mostly ladies because that’s who I work with) and most of them are very uncomfortable with my story. They are uncomfortable at how I describe my mental health at the time. People generally don’t seem to like it when others are not happy or pretending to be happy. How many times other women have told me that I should be grateful or everyone picks a bad men at some point or stop moaning you chose him. How have we lost our empathy and understanding. Even if you don’t understand the situation. When my dad was dying my boss called me into the office and asked me to leave my problems at home. At home I was being abused.

Are you saying that women have accepted patriarchy and become like men? Are men different in there connections with compassion and empathy. Why is empathy seen as a negative?

I am emotionally sensitive, always have been and was told I’m too sensitive and to toughen up. Why do I need to toughen up, what’s wrong with being emotional? In response to my abuse I was told to stop being so sensitive, as if it’s a bad thing. I was abused because I’m too sensitive....

I think you have to get really practical with this stuff to help your kids, particularly daughters.

The abusive man doesn’t come from nowhere. Even if he seems nice, then there is pretty clear signs that he may not be if;

He has a bad relationship with his parents. Doesn’t like his father, father cruel etc.

Women should give those men a real swerve or at least be very careful about them as long term partners. Because that cruel father is the template that man has, and it’s more powerful than you will ever be in terms of influencing a mentality to family and responsibility.

Any family where the father is sitting down like King Midas and the mother is running around like an idiot doing everything? Join the dots. She didn’t get there overnight and neither will you.

Women imagine they can change men. That’s a daft way to think and for themselves, you need to be much, much smarter than that. If you get serious about a man before discovering his family situation, you are missing something that can really give very clear signs about what could happen in the future.

So pretty much sounds like society and the legal system is out dated and messed up.
What hope do children of abuse have when cafcass disregard domestic violence and put them straight back into the hands of the person who the mother has spent years trying to leave. Leading to more children suffering from trauma, perhaps becoming perpetrators themselves or potential victims.

All these adverts on the tv and social media from the government telling people to ask for support and speak up then completely fail them in the legal system. Hypocrisy!

A few years back a woman was imprisoned for 'falsely retracting a rape accusation' and the kids were given by SS to the man to look after.

Note it means they accepted he was a rapist, and reacted by imprisoning the victim and having the kids live with the rapist.

She retracted after threats from his family IIRC.

That's a good demonstration of the sort of societal inbuilt patriarchal stuff that is being discussed.

@Fightingback16 You are spot on. I walked out on my abusive ex-husband six years ago but I will never be able to leave him. He will always be allowed to control. Cafcass and the courts let myself and my children down and awarded 50/50. They did not listen.
The abuse of us all (emotional and financial) therefore continues 6 years on.
My eldest is now 13 and (on the surface) hates me and "wants" to live with father ft. His younger brother will join him. He may see me about three days a year "if I'm lucky". I am constantly called a f*king bitch and a c*t by my own son whom I have put first at every point.
Court again before the end of the year - he's taken me about 10 times now. Ex wants me to see them just EOW. This case alone is costing in thr region of £15k. I had planned to buy a house but can't afford to now so remaining in a tiny private rented.
My mum asked me today what my biggest regret was. It is leaving him rather than committing suicide. My children would have been better off that way because they would be with their dad without being used as a weapon to punish their mother. And I would also not have been around to suffer the pain of constant abuse and fear of losing my kids. As long as I am breathing I will be abused and so will my poor children.

Oh @Nicknamegoeshere you have just written down my nightmare and my worry. I have no words to say.

I didn’t mean to sounds ignorant. I’m only just at the beginning so didn’t really even think about the control that continues even after leaving. I’m still learning about all of this. It’s really horrifying. I deeply regret that my daughter has this as her life. I’m scared for her. I stopped contact mid Dec and he hasn’t made an application yet. But he forced me out the family home and it’s cosy my about £5,000 just to get a court application in. He is controlling me financially and my daughter.

@Fightingback16

You sound like you are having a very hard time. But it should not be costing you £5000 to get an application into the family court. Lawyers can exploit the vulnerable woman too. You need to be very, very hard headed to go to court and get a good result. If you had care of your daughter most of the time, it’s hard to be made to leave the FMH.

Court with children is very hard. But you really need to understand that the emotion you feel will not get you there. I hope you have a good lawyer, but I am worried for you. Going to court requires you to be very, very tough. And you have to understand it’s a long, long slog. You need some real life support to make it.

@Fightingback16 My case is very rare I think so don't worry. Also, I have to shoulder some of the blame for marrying a genuine sociopath in the first place!!

Legal fees are a nightmare - in total it's been around £40k (I used my divorce settlement which was supposed to get me on the property ladder) and like someone said, you will need help emotionally. Do you have emotional support you can rely on?

I think to the person saying men are helping round the house or dont notice housework. That is your terminology and husband and a cop out. I wasn't raised that way and no amount of societal influences can detract from what my parents taught me. I am 100% a product of nurture.