Men are not born to believe they are superior so what is going wrong to create so many abusers?

[Fightingback16]

Bit of a large assumption but even if you look on here there are so many women being abused.

In my example it was my ex husbands fathers doing as he was abusive.

Why are so many men narcissistic what is going so wildly wrong out there. How are mothers (And the rest of the family) raising sons to be so damaged?

@Teddy1970

Sorry, I meant to add that some women from previous generations were taught that men are more important than women, hopefully it's dying out now.

Unfortunately not , it's alive and well in my neighbours house .

I think its education.
Anger is OK. Uncontrolled anger or causing harm to others isnt. We cant live in a word devoid of all anger, as it is a necessary function to survive.

Men will be scarier when angry, as they are physically larger. The education piece needs to be around ensuring men are aware of HOW they should show anger/emotion healthfully.

I agree I think education needs to include real life possibilities. We are not taught how to handle these possible situations. I had absolutely no idea this existed in the world, if I had perhaps I would have been better adapted.

Women are socialised not to express anger, society reacts very badly to angry women. More strongly than to a man saying he feels sad or lonely, I would say.

Men on TV who open up about difficulties get applauded. Women on TV who show anger about experiences or issues are slated, and I'm sure we can all think of the words applied to them.

This stuff hurts both sides but I often see that the commonly held truths don't resonate that well with real life.

And why do men inflict DV on women. I'd say it's a combination of patriarchal ideas (hangover from women as possessions) and because they can (bigger stronger) and because they will more than likely get away with it (deeply embedded ideas about property etc again).

Stop saying man up and grow a pair. Stop making girl and boy babies conform to shit stereotypes.
Have you tried finding a neutral new baby card? It's hard work.

Stop the pink and blue shit. It implies difference, and female weakness

It starts at birth and we all have a responsibility not to perpetuate the shite

Well we live in a patriarchal society where men are put on top. If you read the threads of women changing their names on marriage you’ll see so much defensiveness - I needed to change my name! Etc. So many small examples encouraging a man to be dominant. Dominant = controlling in the end.

My Ex was an Alpha Male. He was highly competitive. We reward that. He got very highly paid jobs. Great car. Amazing house. I was as intelligent and capable as him. Except my ‘strength’ was constantly dampened and questioned by society. I was a high earner, but becoming a single parent and putting my child first meant I lost all of that status. In my marriage - my Ex admitted that he found it ‘intimidating’ to be with me at times. I am very feminine, softly spoken, sometimes shy, easy going. Yet I have opinions, and a strong mind. I would not necessarily back down in an argument. I did not leave all the decisions to DH. I knew about money, I was brave.

After he left, after a string of affairs and verbal abuse, he’s gone for young women who look up to him and think he’s amazing. They think his opinions are so intelligent. They like him to pay. They like him to sort out stuff for them. He likes that. His family couldn’t give a stuff about the fact he treated me badly or that he is only on token Dad at best. They show him off to others as he’s done so well at work. His mother thinks the sun shines as he is her number one son in terms of status.

So men, women, we all contribute. If we are a mother, and don’t condem our son for leaving his wife because he wanted to fuck younger women, then we contribute. If we are a sister, and join in gossip about how your bother’s wife is ‘so bossy’ because she actually has a good job and brings up her child, and you are jealous and want to put her down, you contribute. If you are a man and convince yourself that you are pretty special and therefore ‘deserve some fun’ rather than bringing up your kid with severe SN, you contribute.

I, for one, am bringing up my sons to be really decent, caring human beings. I never tolerate ‘boys will be boys’ and never say ‘don’t be like a girl’. I show them by being a multi-faceted woman that women are not just one dimensional beings. I tell my brothers they are lucky to have such capable and lovely wives, and that I’m so proud of them for being such stable, caring husbands and fathers. I tell my father who left my mother to have an affair that he affected my sense of value as a teenage girl, I confront him with it.

We can all have an affect on this!

this article in the Times today is excellent. We are raising a new generation of abusers unless we do something about this.

And why do men inflict DV on women. I'd say it's a combination of patriarchal ideas (hangover from women as possessions) and because they can (bigger stronger) and because they will more than likely get away with it (deeply embedded ideas about property etc again). I can’t speak for other women, but my Ex escalated into verbal abuse because of entitlement and ego. These were all fed from

• other women who he was having affairs with and enabling his idea that ‘poor him trapped with an awful woman’ and because they were younger and less experienced - cross that he didn’t leave me for them and because competitive sexually I think - going all out sexy as that was what they had compared to me - boring housewife. All unfortunately feeds the man’s ego - and dangerously so as he then feels all women he has sex with, including me, were there at his beck and call. He had all the power.
• work where as a very highly paid professional he became used to admiration and ‘leader’
• family (unfortunately especially the female members of his family, mother and sisters) - who loved that he had high status and were very deferential to him
• Society and friends. His male friends joined in with him to agree that ‘I sounded difficult’ and that they could get why he ‘would get angry’
• therapist - he went to a therapist on the recommendation of our marriage counselor to sort out his issues - she had no idea and he spent most of the time talking about ‘why I made him so angry’. She never challenged his anger, and just encouraged him to talk about what it was that made him so angry. After counseling it was clear that he had started to lie about me, as if being probed to justify his anger he formulated a story about how awful it must have been to get that angry.

And yes, after I had our child with severe SN he also had so much more actual power. Financially he earned everything. Emotionally he had a very active social life, (as well as affairs), whereas I was increasingly isolated as I was looking after our child.

I do think that this all combined to give my Ex the bedrock to being abusing me. If any one of those factors had been more challenging, such as his family, or work, in both calling out his entitled behaviour and rewarding more of his decent behaviour, then I do think my Ex would have had some clear checks on his start to verbally, financially and emotionally abuse me.

I eventually sought help from a DV centre, who were very helpful. They said some men who have status will really wake up and check their behaviour if their status is threatened. They said that in my case, threatening or actually calling the police the next time he verbally abused me would be highly effective (not always in every case - so not always recommended). It was highly effective - my Ex suddenly realized that his big bubble or rewards could come crumbling down. So if we hold men more to account this can really help.

Then it goes to court where the majority of the judges are men.....

If you don’t mind me asking @IceCreamSummer20 did your husband come from a normal family?

I’m just wondering if abusive people can just be made into abusers from the society around them even if they had loving nurturing parents.

I’m not being ignorant I just don’t have the knowledge.

The problem is the prevailance of cluster b personality disorders in society and nothing being done to recognise them as they begin to form in early childhood. Absolutely nothing. No system in place whatsoever ever. Also, no education on how to spot them early on. Why? Surely that would have been more valuable than learning friggin trigonometry.

Just as many women are along these lines but it can present differently in men. But just think of workplace bullies and bitchy frenemies - they are the same thing.

A system should be in place (maybe a yearly psychologist visit) to detect these forming early on in children in schools. And if at 18, the traits are still there (despite intervention) diagnosis should be made. Ideally there would be a service like that of Clare's law that has all narcissists, psychopaths and sociopaths registered for people to see. But I doubt they would do this due to human rights.

I don’t mind at all @Fightingback16 and also to say, he never every laid a finger on me. His family were very respected, but his Dad was an alcoholic and likely abusive. My Ex was sent to boarding school and by his admission, he loved it and said that he escaped the horrible atmosphere at home that his siblings had. He would not describe it as abusive, but emotionally I think it must have been. I think his brother is probably abusive as well.

It is sad because these abusers (the ones who have witnessed things as children) were once small defenceless children who have grown their brains around abuse. Like you say there there is a time where this may have been reversible. They don’t teach society at school and how to behave.

Teach your sons tolerance is the answer. Also, dont let them get into a relationship or touch anyone.

his Dad was an alcoholic and likely abusive

I think his brother is probably abusive as well

Those phrases epitomises it. We are very quick to judge people without any objective evidence beyond hearsay, our own interpretations and stereotypes.

Men are not born to believe they are superior so what is going wrong to create so many abusers?

How are mothers (And the rest of the family) raising sons to be so damaged?

The attitude you hold is the problem, OP. It is the very essence of the issue.

Yes my attitude was based on my particular issue which was too blanket of an attitude. I worded it wrongly and without thought.

It is a much much broader problem .

IceCreamSummer20, excellent posts.

Ex H had a dyfunctional childhood, passive aggressive father and cluster B personality mum. He appears to be more impacted by it than his siblings so personality or genetics seems to also be a factor.

Patricia Evans in her book Verbally abusive relationship discusses "power over" as a driving force. If a child is abused because the parent had power they grow up to believe this is normal. Due to patriarchy men have power in our society and this leads to abuse of power because it is often unchecked. Rarely do men criticise other men for affairs or disrespect for women.

I remind my boys that they are privileged due to being born male, they are stronger and faster than females of similar ages and this can translate into feelings of superiority. However I also see how early on boys are encouraged to suppress feelings, not to cry when hurt is very typical. They also have to tolerate "banter" which is often verbal bullying so they learn that you need to defend or attack first.

Since patriarchal societies are overwhelmingly the norm, it is my view that in addition to socialisation there are biological sex differences that influence roles too.

I don't really know what to think.

I'm a victim of DV. I've had more than one violent man in my life, but I've also experienced some absolutely awful nasty spiteful bullying and gaslighting from women. I'm nervous of both sexes as a consequence.

Oh my what a stupid question I asked. Way too big!

@Binterested

this article in the Times today is excellent. We are raising a new generation of abusers unless we do something about this.

The article shared above is really good. We're facilitating a culture where female abuse is normalised and not enough women, let alone men are speaking up against it. Then we wonder why women are routinely seen as objects in our society! Even on mumsnet on the porn-related threads, the number of women determined to justify and normalise our pornography culture which based on the objectification (overwhelmingly) of women and in so many cases their abuse, is scary.

It's not stupid at all. It's a very interesting question. Lots to debate and discuss.

More stupid that I said about mother’s raising abusive men.

The amazing resource that is the internet, what have men done with it... well 30% of traffic is their obsession with sex & then there is the invasive data gathering to trick & con people & destroy democracy, and then of course the profiting off slave labour for obscene profit. It's all win / lose scenario, they seem incapable of imagining anything else. With our home our planet, the very air we breathe being the biggest loss of all. Basically they are intellectually, morally & emotionally inferior. And even playing by their rules, in their game, we can still win. The sooner females realise this & distance ourselves, the sooner we will be truly liberated. All they have is their physical strength- don't give them the opportunity to use it.