Men are not born to believe they are superior so what is going wrong to create so many abusers?

[Fightingback16]

Bit of a large assumption but even if you look on here there are so many women being abused.

In my example it was my ex husbands fathers doing as he was abusive.

Why are so many men narcissistic what is going so wildly wrong out there. How are mothers (And the rest of the family) raising sons to be so damaged?

"Years ago, when someone said 'Ladies first", my late Grandad would reply with "Except up a ladder."
I take this to mean that women often want "equality""
Just a sexist joke about seeing up their skirts, I suspect.

Historical context in relation to women's rights and the changes which have been to society and those that still need to be made is interesting, but in this thread we are talking about how men in our society all over the world behaving with a deep profound lack of respect for humanity - women and children - even though women have more rights now than before. This is why people are talking about parenting being key. Society change are also needed but are a different subject - but it is really important too - such as changing education, laws about porn.

This is more than families, and especially mothers. This is about societies as a whole, decrying the very deeply embedded ideas from history, religion etc that are so deep they go unnoticed they don't go unnoticed.

Why do some men and boys have this attitude? Why not? It does them little harm, I think? I really don't think this is right. You look at men who do treat women and everyone else properly and who benefit from close, well functioning relationships, emotional connection, I suspect their satisfaction is going to be high. People including men who treat others well do so because that is what they want to do, this is what they think is right, and they get a high pay off from it with close relationships and the happiness that brings. The attitude of abusive men/people comes from them having learned from that behaviour around them without having the counterbalance of being taught the right thing.

For example, I admit that I struggle with the fact that so many women appear to be more than happy to give up work when they have children isn't this just radfem ideology randomly inserted? The person who spends the most time with a child has the most influence over their future life, for sure.

@wehavetochangeit What I'm saying is women too often think that marriage will protect them financially forever (that's not always correct) and they become dependent on their spouse, often without an understanding of what could go wrong.
I totally understand reducing hours etc when the children are small and costs of childcare are a factor, but giving up work entirely when the children and not returning ever? Dangerous move.
I've been married to a wealthy man (but still worked) and it was a complete nightmare when I divorced. My fiancé earns slightly less than me (together both working ft we come out with around £3k pm which I think is lowish?) and I will be returning to work after my maternity leave finishes. Not sure whether ft or pt yet - depends re childcare costs.

@terracottapot You're conflating two issues 1. testosterone - women have testosterone; fact. 2. Myths that women and men have different brains, therefore they behave in different ways which has been largely debunked. Myths, not fact.

I'm not talking about biological differences but behavioural differences. This is in line with the subject matter of the thread which is about abusive men and why they abuse. It's not about the fact that men are bigger, taller or stronger than women.

I agree it does men harm to behave in this way. They end in cold emotionally drained marriages, or divorced or seeking young exiting relationships who bring them no growth or deep happiness.

Women most definitely have a lot to answer for. I was having a conversation at work with the girls today about how I’m struggling financially at the moment being alone and having no support. One of my colleagues interjects with well that’s what you get for having a child with a man you knew who was abusive. Thanks for that! No I didn’t at the time know he was abusive. People need to be more supportive.

@Dissimilitude I didn't claim that there were no biological differences between men and women. Women don't have testes for example and I can see that with my eyes. I don't need peer reviewed articles in order to understand and see that. Being larger in size, men also have larger brains, I can see that myself. That isn't what I was saying and it's disingenuous of you to suggest as such.

You have provided no evidence to back up your claims of behavioural difference being shown in the brain. Your claim was bullshit.

Men just are not being held responsible. Divorce goes to court and abuse is rarely taken into account. I never spoke up, what really would be the point. They get away with it. Society is set up for them. If I tell a judge what he has done to me in terms of my mental health he will probably deem me unfit as a mother and my husband fit. I was weak to begin with.

Now I have to prove he was abusive not he doesn’t have to prove he wasn’t. That’s probably a lot of the reasons why...just because they can.

Sadly its expectation and entitlement backed up by secrecy. For a lot (not all but a lot) they married career minded, independent women but once they had a baby they expected that woman to transform into a suepr housewife and act as if she had never worked at all. How could he possibly be expected to help with the baby or house when he has worked (you know, like she did...). This gets more complex when those women then return to their jobs either because of want or need, sometimes part time and then women are left doing it all with incompetents, moaning me throwing their weight around to keep their rather cosy place and playing the victim. If those men didn't do this then how would they keep their partners subservient and doing everything? This is often backed up by the older generation who talk about all they scarificed for their families whilst forgetting that they didn't work a day past their first BFP. Oh and a good old dose of 'no x wouldn't do that. He was a good boy/nice man/good father' or maybe it was a one off? Thats been my experience anyway.

My testosterone post was on the wrong thread by the way! But anyway.

I also take the ladder thing as a joke about seeing up her skirt. Not a deep political statement.

Thats called a balanced society. You cannot go around accusing people of things that have a huge impact on their lives without proof just because you are hurt.

I am not saying you are lying or minimising your trauma, but if he made up a completely false story that you had physically assaulted him, should the courts believe him?

'One of my colleagues interjects with well that’s what you get for having a child with a man you knew who was abusive. '

This is the sort of thing I was talking about with the deeply embedded patriarchal ideas that people don't really realise they are promoting.

That it's women's responsibility to somehow predict what men will be like down the line, rather than men's responsibility not to be abusive.

And societies responsibility to condemn/ address abusive men, rather than turning the spotlight on the woman and her choices.

This is why people are talking about parenting being key.

People aren't talking about parenting being key. They're pointing the finger at women:

Women most definitely have a lot to answer for.

And saying that if they brought their children up better, there would be no abusers. As though children are brought up in a vacuum with no other influence than their mother. No adverts, no porn, no news, no books, no friends or colleagues, no misogynist hierarchy or culture.

We live in a world where, in some countries, women have to wear black sheets over their whole bodies and hide their faces because no one else is allowed to view another man's property. Where domestic violence and rape is endemic. Where girls can't get an education because they have to stay at home and help with the family or are sold off as child brides.

We don't live in an equal world for women. The majority of the world doesn't respect women and girls.

The point is that our society and the courts are not balanced.

Look at what's been in the news recently about rape cases.

People aren't talking about parenting being key they are. They are pointing the finger at women no, I said that whatever the problems are caused by, if women don't act then nothing will change ...And saying that if they brought their children up better, there would be no abusers. As though children are brought up in a vacuum with no other influence than their mother. No adverts, no porn, no news, no books, no friends or colleagues, no misogynist hierarchy or culture actually posters have acknowledged these issues and the fact that it makes it even harder to bring up children well.

What I'm saying is women too often think that marriage will protect them financially forever (that's not always correct) and they become dependent on their spouse, often without an understanding of what could go wrong I don't know any women like this, thought I am sure there are, but I do agree with you that financial issues are a huge problem for women caught in abusive relationships. Though that isn't what the thread is about. Yes, I do agree that financial dependence makes an abusive marriage worse. In a nonabusive situations, women with qualifications and skills can completely give up work for a few years and then go back to their careers though. So it is the abuse in our society which is the problem?

Financial dependence is a mechanism that men have over women as well. Another unnoticed thing that when questioned is met with loads of justification.

In the past in the UK and around the world now the laws and structures show that this is a tool that men and societies have used and do use to control women.

Look at what's been in the news recently about rape cases.

Be careful on what you read into this...
The CPS are a political football currently. I speak first hand where I (and many men) have had to speak to the police on rape allegations. I cant speak of others, but my instance was a 1 night stand where she got caught by her husband.

She was caught on tape saying her husband said he would divorce her, so she cried rape. CPS didnt prosecute her as a false allegation and just dropped everything next day...

The CPS have a minefield of filtering out genuine victims and 'victims' - I dont envy them. I dont think anyone can realistically know the true number of rape victims anymore.

Imagine if that was your DS being accused...

@wehavetochangeit I suggest you re read the thread:

IMO, mothers have a lot to do in creating entitled nasty men.

I agree. And if the woman married an abuser the buck stops with her.

If men don't act, nothing will change. If men didn't rape, there would be no rape.

@namechange12a

Can't believe you're blaming mothers or women!

We live in a patriarchal society where men are socialised to feel superior to women. There is a lot of hatred or misogyny in society and men imbibe these messages from a young age.

'You fight like a girl.'
'You run like a girl.'
'Don't be such a girl.'
'You're crying like a little girl.'

Girls are something you don't want to be. Weak and inferior, easily dismissed, ridiculed.

Girls are socialised to 'play nice'; that they are failures if they aren't partnered, it's their fault if their relationship fails.

There is a hierarchy and men are at the top and women are below them. This is how it's been for thousands of years. You can't blame mothers and mothers only for abusive men. It's a huge problem in society with one in 4 women being affected by abuse in their lifetime and we have no idea on rape statistics as it's so rarely reported.

Men are raping and abusing women with impunity because we have a misogynist justice system often combined with a jury fed rape myths. The majority of rapes (90%) are by someone the woman knows and are often very difficult to prove. Men know they can get away with it, relying on male entitlement (boys will be boys) and female shame.

Porn is now ubiquitous and it is full of woman hating violence. It's teaching boys about sex and the lessons are phallocentric and aggressive.

We have woman haters in power in all aspects of society. Women are harassed in the streets, at work, on public transport etc because women are inferior to men and there to be intimated and harassed. Reduced to their bodies in public spaces which belong to men.

Women are society's punchbags and scapegoats.

All the 50 shades crap doesn't help.

Heartache, so women report DV to get legal aid AND women 'cry rape' over consensual sex.

Yes you're right. Rape prosecutions and convictions are through the floor because the authorities have realised women are manipulative liars.

Great news!

@heartache590 false sexual assault claims are tiny. It's not a minefield at all.

My job as a single mum is to raise ds (12) to be a decent man who understands that his mum, his wife, his daughter are all his equals. That he’ll put in the same effort and get his hands dirty to the same degree.

He sees me, an Independant professional woman, run my life as I choose, provide for us and succeed. He increasingly shares domestic tasks and knows he must help.

If he turns out to be a lazy sexist git, I’ll give him hell

Rape prosecutions and convictions are through the floor because the authorities have realised women are manipulative liars.

The reality is rape is a hard crime to prove because it's usually one person's word against another.