Men are not born to believe they are superior so what is going wrong to create so many abusers?

[Fightingback16]

Bit of a large assumption but even if you look on here there are so many women being abused.

In my example it was my ex husbands fathers doing as he was abusive.

Why are so many men narcissistic what is going so wildly wrong out there. How are mothers (And the rest of the family) raising sons to be so damaged?

IMO, mothers have a lot to do in creating entitled nasty men. They are not born like that but if you give up to every tantrum saying “it’s just a phase/he will grow out of it”, behave as a servant around them, allow them to do less work at home while the sisters are expected to help... you don’t always need an abusive father, just a over indulging mother.

My ex was apparently a nice person until he was 16 and decided to live with his dad. In the words of his friends, "He came back a cunt," after 2 years of living with him.

It turned out his dad was a severe alcoholic and woman beater/verbal abuser. My ex had problems with alcohol and abuse. He never hit me but threatened, and he always used any weaknesses against me. He had a lovely side to him, but his abuse was too much and too frequent.

I believe it was learnt behaviour. I believe he was quite traumatised by what he witnessed and had to learn how to adapt to fit in with his dad. I believe mimics what he saw because he's angry and hurt.

Well SIL, who was married to a complete mummies boy and hated every minute of it is doing an amazing job of raising an other pair of absolute mummies boys. Exh doesnt help with his lack of boundaries but she just wont see it. I blame both parents equally

It's parents 100%. If people want to not raise the next generation of abusers then the buck stops with them. All the men in my family were raised correctly in my eyes. No marriage breakdowns and no form of abuse whatsoever.

I think boys are less likely to grow up being taught empathy and emotional literacy, less likely to experience emotional intimacy and that is partly to do with the female caregivers, female teachers, and partly to do with learned behaviour from the men around them. I have boys and they have complained for years about how boys are treated differently at primary school, given less comfort, told off more for the same misdemeanours, and it has made them deeply deeply angry. At one point the boys started "hating" the girls because of it, and I had to do a lot of talking with ds - about how the (female) teacher was wrong in how she was handling things but that it wasn't the girls' fault etc etc. That phase thankfully passed - but we are now at the copying other men and boys stage. It is hard work.

I feel like I am constantly having to work triple hard to try to ensure my sons grow up to be fulfilled emotionally and to treat everyone else with respect.

And basically whether we like it or not, and whether you want to entirely claim patrimony and hold women as victims or not, bottom line is that if women do not take the responsibility for ensuring change it will not happen.

There is the old "boys will be boys" "girls are so much easier" thinking and until we bring about change to that ourselves, the problems will continue.

It isn't just the high levels of domestic abuse which is scary. It is also the terrifying levels of online child sexual exploitation and trafficking which is predominantly being driven buy men, and I don't think most people realise the scale of it.

by men not buy men

It's parents 100%. If people want to not raise the next generation of abusers then the buck stops with them. All the men in my family were raised correctly in my eyes. No marriage breakdowns and no form of abuse whatsoever I agree. And if the woman married an abuser the buck stops with her.

I guess it depends on how the parents were raised and so on and so. My mums mum was emotionally cold, my mum is emotionally cold. I was scared stiff as a child and got abused as an adult. I could quite easily carry on my own family’s cold motherly ways...but I won’t because for some reason I’m not like that.

Women like myself didn’t marry and abuser, it’s doesn’t work like that.

Oh I read that wrong. Yes it stops with me. I’m lucky that I realised something was wrong. But it’s hard.

@Fightingback16 the fact you have stopped it is amazing

I’m just wondering if abusive people can just be made into abusers from the society around them much less likely if there has been the right parenting even if they had loving nurturing parents love is necessary but parents also need to teach skills and qualities such as empathy, independent thought, moral compass, self control, emotional intelligence.

OP i think that your initial thoughts were right.

Thanks @Jussayingisall I’m happy I’m free of my husband but I have demons now of my own to sort out. Living with my husband broke me and now I have PTSD and chronic fatigue and lots and lots of anxiety. I don’t want my “battle scars” to damage my daughter.

I think a lot of the battle is you knowing how you want to raise your daughter. My parents weren't perfect but they did a hell of a job in my opinion

I’m happy I’m free of my husband but I have demons now of my own to sort out. Living with my husband broke me and now I have PTSD and chronic fatigue and lots and lots of anxiety. I don’t want my “battle scars” to damage my daughter

@wehavetochangeit I was interested because I am effected but my parents. I lived in a nice neighbourhood, everyone around me were married, not divorced, house, money, holidays, education etc etc, all the things that should have made me into a well rounded person. But...my parents raised me to be emotionally neglected, shy, afraid and it messed my life up. They have a lot to answer for and they have absolutely no idea. It must happen to a lot to people. I became a people pleaser, other entitled and angry. I would have swapped all the nice things I had just for a mum who held me when I was scared it told me I was doing well.

I should have added to my thread title because people are also raised into victims also, like myself. Parenting is hard!

Not all victims of DV I just want to add are raised badly, just some. (Minefield)

I think it is parents. Anecdotally, I know my son's friends who were raised in single mother households with sisters who so far appear to have so much respect for women, and look up to their mothers and treat them well. Their fathers are not in the picture and so imo they haven't learnt or witnessed crappy treatment if those men were abusive.

Positive male role models are important as are positive female role models.
My ExH was abusive to me, and came from a patriarchal traditional middle eastern upbringing but every opportunity I get I teach my son what it means to be a woman these days, I remind him that his father treated me like crap and that no man should do that ever. I teach him about female role models and to the best of my ability show him through my actions how women should be treated.

I remember my sister once complained about something in the kitchen and joked "ha ha I guess I'll have to do this because I'm a woman" and my son interjected and said " you shouldn't say that, women don't belong in the kitchen. Anyone can be in the kitchen"

Abusive men will have had influence from their fathers and environment as well as enabling mothers. Not all mothers do this of course but my MIL was the epitome of enabling bad behaviour. She used to tell me I should always have lipstick on to greet my husband when he comes home, would question why I hadn't been intimate with if it had been a few days and would always tell me that my priority is my husband. She of course would not have known any different but I truly believe within a generation we will see some huge progress; that our sons will grow up better rounded because of this.

We will get some pushback, but I'm optimistic.

This is a really interesting thread. Reading the stories, makes me think that it is an uphill climb, however optimistically we can do much within our own families - both by changing our own reactions to our upbringing, and by bringing up our own children.

I have had two major relationships in my life, and both times it is shocking to see how much misogyny there is in both my Exes backgrounds. The first had a normal, happy family. Father not abusive at all. However I remember when we broke up and I had to really work at keeping a good relationship with ex MIL. She was all prepared to blame me as a bitch for everything. Anything but see fault in her son. She even told me that a woman’s job was to stay, no matter what, and that her sister had been beaten up in the early days of her marriage but she was proud that she’d stayed. Wow. So messed up!

I’ve found as a single parent I also have to try doubly hard. I have two DSs, and they are lovely, decent, kind. However it can quickly turn from male role models, including their fathers. I have to say, rather sadly, that although they love their sons but on balance, the attitudes and norms that they give them are very hard to fight against. My eldest is an absolutely fantastic man, so respectful and kind. However he is emulating his father, who for example tells him not to just get his head down and study, but to live his dreams and only do a job he loves. I immediately think NO! This may not seem misogynistic, however it is telling him that he doesn’t need to be responsible, be committed, pay the rent. Ex pays hardly any maintenance, and tells his son to do a job he loves... how do you counter that?

I’ve been more aware that I have to get my son to do more around the house, to earn some money and not just expect me to pay it, to be clear that we cant’ afford this and that as his Dad doesn’t pay half his costs so money has to found elsewhere... we have to try and rebalance things. Not easy!

I think what maybe absent in this conversation is historical context, global view.

Through history pretty much everywhere as far as we know, men took precedence over women. And still do, to different extents around the world.

Women being allowed to own property was earlier last century in the UK. Rape within marriage was only recognised here in the early 90s.

The differing levels of treatment of women around the world shows that it is cultural. EG South Africa has huge rape and DV stats. Brazil. India. Differing from other places in the world. Men and women in those countries are not a different species. They just have a different attitude to Women.

Meanwhile in the UK the rape prosecutions are at an all time low. Women report being subjected to a variety of sex acts, without consent, that are popular in porn.

Sorry for rambling.

My point is that women have always been controlled and oppressed by men and still are. In some countries it is more blatant than others. Some have a sheen of equality but when you scratch the surface it's not a great picture.

This is more than families, and especially mothers. This is about societies as a whole, decrying the very deeply embedded ideas from history, religion etc that are so deep they go unnoticed.

Why do some men and boys have this attitude? Why not? It does them little harm, I think?

In real life of course most men are lovely
But as I've grown older I have realised that even the loveliest men can and do default to 'I'm the boss' when they feel under pressure for whatever reason.

So we need societal change. This thing of saying it's up to individual families won't get us anywhere.

@NiceGerbil really good post. It is historical and global.

I have also noticed that even the nicest men do default to ‘throwing their weight around’ under pressure. I used to be completely nonplussed by this. Couldn’t understand it. I saw it as a weakness, an inability to cope under pressure. The opposite of what the stereotyped ‘male’ is, calm and in control under pressure.

However my Ex is amazing under pressure at work. Fantastic. So calm. Razor sharp. However at home, with me and the kids? Brittle and angry. Because I was in control I think. I can handle it. Don’t know why that made him so cross, but it did.

Years ago, when someone said 'Ladies first", my late Grandad would reply with "Except up a ladder."
I take this to mean that women often want "equality" when it suits them but they're happy to assume the role of assumed subservience when it doesn't.
For example, I admit that I struggle with the fact that so many women appear to be more than happy to give up work when they have children, rendering them entirely dependent financially on their partner. In fact, I think it is still the case that lots of women aspire to find men with a decent enough wage so they can stop working altogether and never return, even when the kids are at school.
If these women are being entirely honest, being with a well-off man probably makes life easier for them than if they worked while the kids are in school. They may say it's in the best interests of the childen etc as justification.
My concern is if/when something goes wrong with the relationship. We all like to think our partners are reasonable people, but this often changes when dealing with divorce and separation.
I think financial disparity can make a man assume the alpha-male role of "provider" - it damages his ego if he cannot support his partner and children on his salary alone. She doesn't "need" to work. This creates a power imbalance and leaves the woman very vulnerable.
I believe that sometimes we as women are somewhat responsible for allowing men to feel superior by all too readily relinquishing our independence in many facets of life.

[quote namechange12a]@terracottapot Women also have testosterone. There's no such thing as 'lady brain' or 'boy brain' - it's a largely debunked myth.[/quote]
On average, women have far less testosterone in their systems than men do. High levels of testosterone causes physiological changes in the body. That is a scientific fact, not a myth.

DH has v low testosterone. He could compete as a 'woman'. Really low.

He has fathered 2 children, used to play rugby, is built like a brick shithouse, and can lift 200 kg when he can be arsed.

Testosterone is not everything.

He is and always has been quite placid. Same as his dad who is even more massive.

The 'normal' testosterone levels are based on really old studies with small numbers, and are disputed. I looked it up when they found his testosterone was through the floor, while they were looking into something else.

Some say that normal testosterone is way wider than current thinking.

It’s funny you should say that. I have high testosterone and as a child had very hairy arms and back which I had to go to the hospital for so they could take pics and log it all. All rather embarrassing but I still associate as female. As a young girl tho I was a Tom boy and hated girls clothes.