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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Husband’s secret email to his ex - what does it mean?

245 replies

Shimmerpowder · 04/07/2020 10:12

I’ve just discovered that in February, before lockdown, my husband met up with an old flame without telling me. He was in town for work trip and secretly arranged to meet her for drinks and dinner. The next day he emailed her:

I know I texted you yesterday to say thanks for meeting up, but I wanted to say it again because I really enjoyed myself last night and it was so good to see you again. I really value our friendship and it felt so easy talking to you and hearing all of your stories about your life, friends and family. It’s quite a privilege to know someone as clever and funny as you, and to be able to pick up so quickly after not having seen you for years felt very life affirming.

Anyway hopefully it won’t be long till we meet again.

Till that happy day

X

I feel frightened by this, but I’m not sure if that’s reasonable. I know this person but not at well, he had a kind of on-off thing with her before we got together. He has been ‘friends’ with her (but barely in touch and never seeing her) for fifteen years. If he’d wanted to meet up with her and told me, I would have been okay with it, but not ecstatic. But he has hidden it.

What should I think?

OP posts:
nopoo · 08/07/2020 20:04

@Shimmerpowder that's a positive update, stay strong

OVienna · 08/07/2020 20:37

@Shimmerpowder

Wishing you all the good vibes. Thanks

Sparticuscaticus · 09/07/2020 08:29

@Shimmerpowder

I have found this immensely eye-opening, encouraging and supportive. I had counselling today and we seemed to reach a new level, thanks to you lot. I posted on Saturday about that message because I was wondering at what point I’d say enough was enough. Since then, I wrote out the whole story but decided not to post because it was 1. Incredibly long 2. Maybe a bit too easy to identify us if someone who knows us happens to read it.Last year my DH had an intense emotional affair with a work colleague (so congrats to those who spotted he was capable of that!) and we are in a v small community where life and work are intertwined so I have to be careful. The problem is, if you live with something long enough, your boundaries get warped. Hearing that he’d clearly crossed them with that email to his ex ALONE has helped me reset them. Thanks for sending me strength and amazing advice. The feeling of not being alone/mad has been so helpful, I wish I could thank everyone individually. 💐💐 to you all.
Oh Shimmerpower he is a shit husband to do this to you & your DC. You've built a life and family together like a beautiful intricate building and he's busy drilling underneath it to undermine & collapse it all down hoping you won't notice. He's the sort of person who steals copper and lead off a church roof to let the rain in and damage it and not care who it affects. He'll do this to whoever he is married to as there's something fundamentally flawed and self centred in him to be unable to consider the devastating impact of his behaviour.

He stopped being an equal partner with the same empathetic, thoughtful and kind goals that you started with together. Something has fundamentally changed - his feelz are now more important to him than anything else

It's really not you, it's him.

Sparticuscaticus · 09/07/2020 08:37

So I think you definitely need to start to replace supports in there, who are your friends , family and what can you put in place to safeguard yourself and your life/home?

I'd be getting all my ducks in order, finding his NI number ready for a CMS claim, his bank account details, looking for FT work and considering what DC and I needed so I could pack his bags at any point I felt I needed to. And I'd think about what made me happy and starting up hobbies again - go out, leave him in charge of DCs some evenings, some weekends all weekend, so that my life was fuller and I remembered who I was as a brilliant funny interesting person. It's a change of focus, but please put yourself back centre in your life and emotionally move him aside so his flakey cheating ass isn't stealing your mojo any more.

Dery · 09/07/2020 08:45

@Shimmerpowder

I haven't RTFT so sorry if this post is out of step and/or just repeating what others have said, but you might find it interesting to read "The Mind of the Intimate Male Abuser: How He Gets into Her Head" which describes the techniques used by abusers and how and why they do what they do. One of the things the author, Don Hennessy, emphasises is how incredibly manipulative abusers are and how skilled they are at turning every situation to their own advantage including manipulating those who are trying to put a stop to their abuse. It's actually criminal behaviour and these people are criminals.

The author also, at one point, states that abusers who have had counselling are harder to deal with than those who have not, and notes that Lundy Bancroft (author of Why Does He Do That? which is also about domestic abuse) says the same. This is because counselling is an affirming process. One thing abusers share - according to these authors - is a colossal sense of entitlement which is only buoyed up even further by the counselling process. So it's great that you're getting counselling without him.

It sounds like your relationship is very poor and you would be better off out of it. @Sparticuscaticus's advice is great, particularly about putting yourself back centre in your life and moving on emotionally.

Vodkacranberryplease · 09/07/2020 09:22

@Dery for someone that hasnt RTFT (btw does that stand for full thread or fucking thread??) you have done a great job. Bang on.

SummerCherry · 09/07/2020 12:53

Oh Shimmerpower he is a shit husband to do this to you & your DC. You've built a life and family together like a beautiful intricate building and he's busy drilling underneath it to undermine & collapse it all down hoping you won't notice. He's the sort of person who steals copper and lead off a church roof to let the rain in and damage it and not care who it affects. He'll do this to whoever he is married to as there's something fundamentally flawed and self centred in him to be unable to consider the devastating impact of his behaviour.

What a beautiful and poignant post. It is so true unfortunately, for you OP and many of us. It takes years to build a strong family, yet he’s taken out the foundations whilst telling you all is fine. And you are blamed for noticing that the building has collapsed.

Dery · 09/07/2020 17:57

@Vodkacranberryplease Thanks very much! (I'd always understood it to mean read the full thread but your alternative suggestion has given me a real laugh! Love it. It's LOL all over again...)

Vodkacranberryplease · 09/07/2020 19:25

There's an old IT saying RTFM 'Read the fucking manual'.
I thought it was full too and then thought am I being naive?? 😁 I could be both I suppose..

DeeCeeCherry · 09/07/2020 21:15

After reading Dery's great post I'm beginning to think this should be part of education for young women at secondary school age. I know it's impossible and wishful thinking but, still...

Shimmerpowder · 20/03/2024 13:23

Four years ago, I posted about my husband’s gooey email to his ex. The replies on here were incredibly perceptive. He is, of course, a covert victim narcissist. Amazingly, when I began to discover the answers, I still minimised and downplayed them, believing he was not all that bad. I got some specialist help after he left. Yes, he left me! Although only after I begged him to find a way to move out. He didn’t move out to do what I wanted, though (that is anathema to him) but because he had done his best to drive me to a nervous breakdown (perhaps worse), and now found my state of high anxiety and distress very boring to live with. One of the specialists listened to me describe his behaviour. She said that of her 62 clients recovering from narcissistic abuse, my ex was in the top 5 of the worst malignant narcs she had heard of. I STILL did not believe he was that bad. However, he was. Two years on, I am finally getting out of the massive post-traumatic stress I suffered when he went, and am finallly seeing his appalling manipulative covert narcissism, and its terrible effects on me and the DC, for what it really is. And I am still trying to divorce him, which has been a nightmare experience because of the lies, entitlement, amnesia, delusions, and almost comical incompetence. If anyone reads this - I think the original thread might have vanished, I only found it in my history - and wants to know more or has knowledge of good narc threads here - please let me know and I will start a new thread to tell some of the sorry tale, in case it helps anyone else. But the unanimous replies to my original post were a great help at a time when I was constantly doubting myself because I was told all the time that I was the problem.

OP posts:
Shimmerpowder · 20/03/2024 13:42

Apologies for putting this ancient old thread up - i wanted to put some kind of warning at the top that it was very old but I’m not very used to how this all works and did it before I realised it would all just go back up as it is. I hope it’s not desperately annoying!

OP posts:
takemeawayagain · 20/03/2024 13:58

It's all so familiar to me OP, I found out after 25 years I'd married a covert narcissist. I only read your thread for the first time today and didn't know it was old but a few pages in I was already thinking 'I bet this guy is a covert narcissist'. No one else would lie and manipulate to such an incredible extent, be that unable to be responsible/to blame for anything, be so desperate for attention and be described as 'pass agg'.

You stopped being useful OP, that's why he left. People are pawns when you have NPD, they're useful in that they give supply, they're a trophy to flash around, or they have some other useful aspect - but they only exist to make the person with NPD look or feel good. There's no depth of any sort to a person with NPD, emotional and personality development stops at a young age. They are chameleons and be what they think people want, they can fool people a lot and for a long time. I thought the problem was me but didn't understand why - they really mess with your head. I cried frequently on and off for around 3 years when things finally started unravelling.

Anyway it was good to read your thread and I wish you all the best with your new life.

Arrivederla · 20/03/2024 14:46

I didn't read the thread when you originally posted op, but I've read it all now and I'm very glad to hear that you are free of him and moving on with your life.

It's good to hear from people who have managed to leave a difficult relationship as it's all to easy to feel confused and stuck 💐

Shimmerpowder · 20/03/2024 16:09

takemeawayagain · 20/03/2024 13:58

It's all so familiar to me OP, I found out after 25 years I'd married a covert narcissist. I only read your thread for the first time today and didn't know it was old but a few pages in I was already thinking 'I bet this guy is a covert narcissist'. No one else would lie and manipulate to such an incredible extent, be that unable to be responsible/to blame for anything, be so desperate for attention and be described as 'pass agg'.

You stopped being useful OP, that's why he left. People are pawns when you have NPD, they're useful in that they give supply, they're a trophy to flash around, or they have some other useful aspect - but they only exist to make the person with NPD look or feel good. There's no depth of any sort to a person with NPD, emotional and personality development stops at a young age. They are chameleons and be what they think people want, they can fool people a lot and for a long time. I thought the problem was me but didn't understand why - they really mess with your head. I cried frequently on and off for around 3 years when things finally started unravelling.

Anyway it was good to read your thread and I wish you all the best with your new life.

Yes, absolutely, you are so right. He had no depth. But of course had a very winning exterior: charming, affable, good humoured with the hallmarks of being cultured and educated. None of it meant anything, though, he was just incredibly empty and he used silence as a potent method to uphold his facade, hide his emptiness and lack of opinions, and to negate. And of course he used lies, denial and blameshifting: ‘I didn’t do it! All right I did. But you made me do it.’ I never once in our life together saw him moved: he only had tears for himself and even they were painfully fake. He was transactional and his super power was triangulation, which he used as revenge. I felt it long before I had the words to express it, or any understanding of it. But what had seemed like a slightly immature sulkiness and petulance at first, bearable because he was generally so lovely, became an awful, malevolent selfishness and manipulativeness that revealed that his sweet exterior had been a facade, the mirroring and chameleon act that you describe. His jokes were actually criticism and insults, including a really mean one that he made about me in his speech on our wedding day. His real self was intent on destroying me. He got deeply into debt early in our marriage and I only found about it when he was already in a debt management programme with bank accounts closed and cards cut up. He wasn’t in the least sorry, which was one of the first major signs he was not normal, and in fact told me I ought to be sorry for him, as it had been very stressful lying to me all that time. I now believe that once I found out about this, he became intent on punishing me for no longer having unquestioning belief in his facade, and for demanding he recognise my feelings and make amends to restore my trust, something he could not do even if he had wanted to, which he didn’t. Straight after the debt, he punished me by getting involved in porn and online hook up sites (again covertly, I only found out when he was in quite deep). This was discarded when he found much better ways to get validation and fuel from other women in his life. But I think the discovery of the debt was the turning point, when he began to become wrathful. This anger was at first expressed as refusing to speak or look at me, removing affection, running out of the house, standing in the corner staring at the wall, lying as if comatose on the floor … all that victim stance.

By the end he was using violence in the way a covert victim narc would: beating himself up in front of me, slashing himself with knives, keys, razors when he couldn’t get his own way or needed to silence me, throwing things, beating the walls. All of this was not the victimhood he pretended, but a rage-filled tantrum at not being left alone to be his empty, self-comforting self, feeding off validation from women (his ex, his female work colleagues, any potential g/friend) to satisfy his incredible vanity. Even today, he emailed to suggest that the reason our divorce is taking so long is because I subconsciously want to remain married to him as long as I can (I filed for divorce and have told him plainly I want it as soon as possible, and he has delayed it by not understanding even the simplest fact, and by lying about his own financial circumstances and trying to take everything he can from me).

You are so right that he left when I stopped being useful. I had already told him that I was like a dead battery to him. He only stared with the cold dead eyes and said nothing. But after one time when he’d been actually violent to me, he turned the charm back on, just for one evening. It was like meeting an old and beloved friend after a really long time: the twinkle and warmth and laughter and interest in me. But it was an act, I knew that by then. One that he was using on lots of other women.

But occasionally when he tried to hoover me with sex and promises of love, I would be sucked back in by the attention and affection I craved so badly. It never lasted though and I learned to wean myself off that addiction in the end. And I learned that forgiving him and holding out for change was futile and only led to worse treatment.

Describing him to a therapist, I said I thought he was around 16 years old in his development and she said ‘Younger.’ I now think he is around 9 years old, and spiteful and selfish with it but all done covertly (in Covid, he did awful things to make me feel desperately ignored and neglected. And sabotaged me constantly). Our children outgrew him in maturity and emotional development some years ago. He is emotionally and mentally extremely stunted, but, in a tall man’s body with a respectable job, he is hard to spot unless you know the signs.

I think now he was attempting to drive me somewhere very dark, but I got out. I’m still working out how we will get divorced. Naturally I supported him and our family for years and years, as a consequence of his debt which took most of his income during our marriage (no explanations of how he got into debt, of course, except that I made it happen). He made promises he now utterly denies, and considers himself entitled to as much as he can get even though this will leave me very badly off after the years of paying for everything, and after I sank all my savings into our house (what an idiot, but it’s done now). The aftereffects were constant weeping, rumination, sleeplessness, flashbacks, panic and anxiety around loud noises and other stressful situations and self harm through lack of care. So I know exactly what you mean.

Thanks for replying and for your good wishes. It’s good to know I’m almost out, but it will always be a massive scar along the heart of my life.

OP posts:
Bookworm20 · 20/03/2024 17:10

I remember when you first posted OP.
And its so good to hear you have got out of that relationship now.
It will of course take time to properly heal, if thats even possible after being with someone like that, but hopefully you can now breathe a little easier, smile a little longer and have moments of calm back in your life.
It takes a very strong woman to stand up to and ask a man to leave after suffering that sort of mental and emotional abuse for so long. After being worn so far down and your entire self as you know it lost somewhere within you. You should be proud that you got out of all that, they certainly do not make it easy.
I wish you all the best and a future filled with happiness and peace.

Shimmerpowder · 20/03/2024 17:31

@Bookworm20 Wow… thank you for remembering and for your kind words. It was a moment when I got over 200 replies from women all saying the same thing. I felt like I wasn’t going as crazy as I thought… Thanks again for your good wishes.

OP posts:
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 20/03/2024 18:03

Bloody good for you. I remember your thread too, I had a different user name back then.

You have cheered me right up, I'm delighted you are finding your feet. Things will only get better (yes, I sang that. Yes, I sang that into the end of a hairbrush. Your news warrants it)

theworldie · 21/03/2024 20:49

I only read your thread for the first time today and didn't know it was old but a few pages in I was already thinking 'I bet this guy is a covert narcissist'.

Exact same here.

OP - I was recently in a “relationship” with one that thankfully only lasted a few months and by God, they do a right number on you. I’m still in shock from it all tbh.

Ive just read all your posts and everything you say resonates so much.

My one was married but maintained they were separated and “living as friends”. He said they both knew it was over but she had MH problems and had been a recluse for 4 years due to his business going into liquidation so he had to “tread carefully”
He completely lovebombed me and hoovered me in. He came across like the nicest, kindest person I’ve ever met. The type who would do anything for anyone and so altruistic (I now realise this was just the facade he wanted to put across to me) constant offers of help and support with things (that never actually materialised). Buying me gifts, sending me love songs with special meaning on Spotify and telling me he couldn’t live without me.

He was messaging me 100 times a day and meeting me every other day, making plans for the future, even offered me a job working for him.

When I told him he needed to tell his wife about us no matter their situation if he wanted to continue to see me he said he was going to tell her. He then went awol for 24 hours then started messaging from “the hospital” saying she’d tried to take an overdose.
I tried to take a step back at this point as it all seemed too bizarre and he then started being manipulative with me, claiming I was his only friend and he couldn’t do this without me.

It was all a lie. His wife thought they were happy and fine. She had no MH issues, no overdose occurred.
She had been bailing him out financially for years - he was even driving her car as he doesn’t own his own!
When she discovered his affair with me and told him to leave he threatened to kill himself by throwing himself in front of a train!

He’s an absolute fucking psycho, pathological liar and covert narcissist and I’m still finding it hard to believe people like this even exist.

Apparently he’s also told her a pack of lies about me, that he only carried on seeing me bc when he tried to end it I begged him not to and said I’D top MYSELF! This is another thing they do - put their own warped behaviours into other people, thus demonising them to others.

The sad thing is I think his wife has stayed with him. He must’ve done a complete number on her over the years which is so sad as she’s very attractive with a good career and he’s an absolute loser. She can’t have kids and wanted to adopt but he wouldn’t as he hates children apparently! She’s only in her 30’s and could meet someone nice if she only had the strength to leave. I think she must know he’s not right in the head but chooses to ignore it for outward appearances maybe?

Anyway, my point is that You’ve done so well getting out as even just after a few months I can see how these insidious personality types get their grips in you and take away your self esteem and your sanity over the years. I still miss the way it was with him in the beginning when he made me feel on top of the world - I have to keep reminding myself it was all a lie.

Shimmerpowder · 22/03/2024 05:53

@theworldie Wow, what a story. Thanks so much for sharing it. Yes, they are basically con artists and they have to be brilliant at it (at first) or else they wouldn’t ensnare the people they want: caring, empathetic people who believe in love and forgiveness, honesty and personal growth. The altruism is a powerful tool to fool others but it is all done to enhance the facade and draw you in, and also to get praise and admiration.

Later I discovered that, like yours did to his wife, he was smearing me to all and sundry as damaged, toxic, bullying etc, while at home I was weeping mess of desperate neediness, begging for love, ground down by his treatment over the years. I have also realised that begging for this love was basically a helpful way of telling him how to treat other women to get them to love him. He went off and did all the things to other women, while telling me he didn’t know what I was talking about, or that he was already doing all those things but I couldn’t see it.

The love bombing is powerful and acts as a kind numbing drug, or hallucinogen. I look back now to how innocent I was, truly believing that he wanted the same things as I did: intimacy, connection, trust… He actually wanted none of these things. I can see now that there was projection on both sides… later he projected his dreadful qualities onto me (accusing me of being controlling, being a black & white thinker, idealising him and demanding perfection, and later accusing me of worse including lying - all his MO), but at first he projected an ideal fantasy onto me, and I projected my core values onto him. I simply couldn’t believe he wasn’t the kind, good natured, sweet man I had married. To be fair, when you get together with a narcissist, they do everything they can to make you believe in their facade and you’d have to be very experienced or intuitive to spot it so early. So you join together to invent a shared fantasy of projection. As they deviate from this fantasy (not of perfection, but of having those basic values), you become confused and bewildered, and then even more confused by their response to being confronted with either their actions or your feelings: zero remorse, lies, denial, defensiveness, blameshifting, projection, fury, tantrums, stonewalling, withdrawal and all the other delightful tools in the narcissist box. They will always demean and devalue you, as soon as you deviate from their fantasy and stop being perfect, as soon as you begin to see through the facade, as soon as you make unreasonable demands for truth and intimacy and respect, and because this is how every relationship that they have must go. But they will be nice again from time to time, to keep you addicted to them and to reinforce the trauma bond.

I was highly addicted to the ‘good times’ and the affection. The hugs and sex acted like a tranquilliser and of course once you have built a life together and have children, it is hard to go. And instinctively, you sense that getting out is going to be hell, as indeed it is. Which might be your narc’s wife puts up with it. Possibly he keeps her under control with sex and pity play like his claims of having no friends. He might threaten self harm and suicide, as mine did. That all works well for obvious reasons.

We had lots of counsellors. The first (a man, that’s important - only the men could seem to see through him) saw me on my own and told me gently that my ex had complex psycho-sexual problems and it would take intense therapy until he was in his 50s or 60s to heal him. Did I have time for that? I can now see that he was restricted in what he could say, and I believe he was saying ‘you do not have time’. But back then, I simply did not believe him. If he had not said ‘sexual’ I might have believed him more, as I felt we had a normal, healthy sex life (although I now see it was not as it was entirely lacking intimacy and was transactional, used as reward and punishment) and if he had added the information that my ex would need to want to get better for it to work, I might have been more concerned. Even then, I knew that he would never consider himself unwell in any way. But I was in my late 30s with 2 small children and I loved him and still believed he was pretty much normal. So I stuck with it.

Even after all the rotten treatment, lies, infidelity (starting off virtual), financial exploitation and incompetence, neglect, laziness and entitlement, I still believed in the facade. It took until I went to a solo counsellor and after about a year of my saying I didn’t understand how someone so kind could be so horrible to me, my counsellor said, ‘You keep saying how kind he is, but the things you’re describing are not kind. Is he kind?” The scales just dropped. A voice in my head said: he is not kind. And once you see it, you can’t unsee it.

Then I started doing serious research (the posts on here helped), and stumbled on narcissism (still didn’t really believe he was one though, of course!) and then found the covert victim narcissist and POW. I had found the instruction manual. He was a perfect example. And actually almost so extreme a CVN, that I honestly think he would be of interest to experts in this area! Shame he can’t be studied..

The strangest thing about covert narcissistic abuse is that for such a long time you’re not aware of it. But once you get given the special specs of insight and knowledge and understanding, it becomes devastatingly clear. Then you can reinterpret everything that happened through those lenses and you can understand the built-in obsolescence of the relationship. The narcissism was always there, and it is there forever. It is not an act. I listened again to the speech he made on our wedding day and it is a masterpiece of narcissistic vanity and unpleasantness, but all disguised as jokes and good humour, except one very nasty joke about me. Not a joke at all, of course, a horrible criticism which I never forgot, but told as a joke and he got a laugh. In the speech he said barely a nice word about me, but told everyone how brilliant and witty he was, and even got the audience to give him a round of applause for looking so great on his wedding day. I didn’t hear this for it was, no one did. (And by the way, the following day we arrived on our honeymoon to find he hadn’t paid for it, so that was my first duty of our married life). Years later, at the only party he ever gave me (a terrible night), he made another speech and made the exact same criticism/joke in that speech too. The wedding day speech was strangely comforting, in a way. It wasn’t personal. I never had a chance. It was a slow motion disaster from day one. They will bring you down one way or another. Other people are objects to them. We supply their fuel but we are interchangeable and easily discarded. They are very, very chilling and I’ve wondered if vampire myths and zombie myths partly spring from these people, who are the closest to the walking dead there is.

I am so glad you got out early and I hope that you keep hold of the lessons… my great fear is getting ensnared again but the only way to be safe it to take it slowly, beware of love bombing, let them show you who they are, and if your instinct warns you that something is amiss, listen to it. It is probably right.

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