Rise of the manchildren

[TirisfalPumpkin]

Aware I might be treading on shaky ground here, given that this is a parenting forum. I'm not out and out blaming parents for this phenomenon - I know 'his mother babied him' is the usual excuse, but I'm sure there's more to it than that. I'm trying to understand it better.

It seems a non-trivial % of millennial males are entitled, lazy man-children. I have personally married two of them. They have cost me dearly (both in the 'thousands of pounds' and 'I'm now cynical and don't trust anyone' way). I have read numerous threads here and found myself nodding along to a catalogue of infuriatingly familiar behaviour, so I don't think it's just me.

I mean by 'manchildren': men that are emotionally stunted, have underdeveloped morals and values, respond in childlike ways to adult issues (lie, sulk, whine) and are subconsciously seeking a partner they can put into a motherly role who will carry the mental load of the relationship and household. They often have hobbies that they prioritise over everything else in life. My friendship circles are kind of nerd-culture oriented and it seems to be especially bad here, but I think it is a wider societal phenomenon than just among gamers and geeks.

I am wondering whether there has been some change in the way boys are raised, that makes them more like this - or are girls brought up not to be difficult and therefore challenge it less? Why do their actual parents seem to enable and encourage them when they behave badly towards their spouse? Is society in general becoming more sexist and placing fewer demands on boys and young men? Are there just as many 'womanchildren' out there? My perception is it's largely a male phenomenon but I can think of a couple of counterexamples.

Rants about awful manchild behaviour welcomed too.

In my opinion it is common across society. Somewhere along the way we are not raising our children to mature through teenagehood into mature, autonomous adults. Our country is led by a people pleasing manchild and there is a strong reason for this, and it's not pretty. We need to change and face this head on as we are failing in our capacity to support our children to grow up. Once in adulthood, the dye has been cast but there is always potential for change if the individual is willing to address this head on and essentially reparent themselves. I definitely don't think that this is only about men.

Interesting points, Perfectstorm.

I wonder if the extension of childhood past 18 is relevant. parents are increasingly expected to be involved in supporting and helping their offspring into their 20s and 30s. We laugh at really OTT helicoptering (mumsy calling in sick for poor 25 year old hungover son, etc) but general parental involvement in adult childrens' lives/finances seems to be increasing. Maybe there is less chance to build resilience and have to fall back on own skills and resources when help is just a phone call away.

Haha, BoJo the manchild. I can see it. He embodies the clever, funny and yet with an underlying nasty streak that a lot of them seem to have.

One of my colleagues springs immediately to mind. He's mid 20s and he is as mature as someone 10-12 years younger. Nothing in his entire life has caused him one second of inconvenience. Nothing unpalatable has ever happened to him. Therefore, he has no concept of putting himself in someone else's shoes, resilience or a mature response to any minor setback. He needs micromanaging and he is unable to contribute to the team. Yet he is well paid and has a degree.

I've seen it in both sexes, but defo worse in some men.

Maybe the days of old when they worked manual jobs meant there was no scope to be a snowflake.

I wonder if it's because there's such an emphasis these days on giving your child everything, they have it all (emotionally and materially) they're just not used to having to work for anything anymore. Mum runs around so much after them it carries on through to their adult self.

Perhaps what you are seeing is the rejection of the gender role where men have to play the stoic, authoritarian provider.

Maybe the "sulking and whining" you're referring to is a rejection of the sexist instruction to 'man up'. Liberation from gender roles cannot be a one way street.

Is this a new phenomenon?

I was under the impression that many men spent Saturdays watching the football then getting drunk and it was socially acceptable for men to go out without their wife to the pub on weekdays after dinner which was made by the wife? I'm 42 and have never eaten a meal made by my Dad. I've seen him iron or use a kitchen appliance apart from the toaster and kettle.

Yes and it's getting worse. I love how someone just said it's because they're rejecting gender roles that are sexist (Newsflash mate, men created those roles for themselves in the first place). That's not what it is. They're not "rejecting" anything. They would do anything to have a wife and children, they're just too busy playing video games, living in their mothers basement and watching disgusting pornography. They're a bunch of entitled losers. You should check out FDS on Reddit. They talk a lot of this stuff.

I agree insofar as gender roles are getting more prescriptive and harder to escape. I think the total abdication of responsibility that characterises the manchild isn't that, though - I'm not ordering them to 'man up' and earn more money, rewire the house, defend my honourwith their fists etc, it's stuff like wash up their tea cup or not cancel date night in favour of an important gaming milestone. It seems they're rejecting basic adulting rather than trad masculinity.

And yes, they're all completely steeped in porn.

The real question is, what was it about them that made you do it twice? Why are you drawn to them?

So many threads on here from young women with partners who expect the woman to work outside the home, do all the childcare, housework, cooking, shopping as well as all admin such as remembering his family birthdays, buying cards and sending them, sourcing presents etc; it's depressing. I've often wondered about the cause of it. It's like the woman should be so grateful to have a man, she should be pleased to do all the shitwork, as well as servicing his dick on demand.

Is the rise of so much male centric porn use partly to blame, where the woman is seen in subservient, man pleasing roles?

I think this is 2 issues.

The issue of men not helping around the house is certainly not new.

The issue of young adults (not just men) behaving like children is much newer and I think the reason is that the world now revolves around children (well this country anyway). Children aren’t expected to ‘grow up’, they’re often molicoddled and shielded from anything ‘bad’ happening. Their parents micromanage their time with extra curricular activities. How many posts have you seen on here recently where the child ‘won’t’ get off their screens, ‘won’t’ do their homeschooling or ‘won’t’ go to bed or whatever. They will if they’re parented! A lot of parents are terrified of upsetting their children.

Older teenagers don’t seem to get Saturday jobs anymore so don’t find out what it’s like to manage a budget or learn how the workplace works.

Parents continue to think of their children as children far into early adulthood eg. complaining to their university/ ringing in sick for them.

TBF when childhood is so ‘perfect’ why would they want to grow up?

Reading with interest because this has been my experience too. The majority of men in their 20s to early 30s whom I’ve dated, known through work or seen my friends date are failing on an extremely basic level. Three actual examples that I’ve experienced: not paying a parking fine for a year so it multiplied and he nearly ended up in court; allowing months of unwashed dishes to pile up; being seemingly happy for his girlfriend to cry alone for hours after a death in her family while he was playing video games. These are three different men, all with good degrees and jobs, and these are not isolated incidents.

@Onemansoapopera

The real question is, what was it about them that made you do it twice? Why are you drawn to them?

Wish I knew! The best I can say is that there were zero apparent signs of their true nature until we were living together, and in both cases it got significantly worse after marriage / buying property together. In both cases there was cheating and porn/kink involvement too. I think porn is doing a number on men's sexuality.

DandyMandy - that reddit sub is fab. I've got about 15 browser tabs of it open and am reading avidly.

Wow maybe this is subconsciously why I like older men. (No daddy issues lol) I have had an old mind and "soul" from a very young age. I have dated my age but I knew it was very serious and I couldn't trust them. My partner is 20 years older than me and we've been together 14 years. He cleans, cooks way better than I ever could, irons his own stuff. We go halves on all bills. Both replace stuff that need getting such as food and toiletries. He has his own issues like many people do but his good far outweighs these. He has lived on his own for a long time and I wonder if this is it? Maybe men are moving straight out from their mum's and not learning to fend for themselves? Just a musing.

I mean it was never serious*

I think about this a fair amount - from a parental standpoint - as I actually dread the thought my son could end up as one of these manchildren.

I do think a good portion of it comes down to poor parenting - ‘poor’ in the sense of removing all obstacles from your child’s life, be that blocking/avoiding all emotional/mental anguish or not allowing your kids to face simple learning curves to gain life skills that are actually needed to build character and resilience.

The pervasive accessibility of misogynistic porn (especially from a young teen age) mixed with the above type of parenting will lead to a world of entitled, characterless manchildren.

I genuinely dread my son reaching porn access stage - I can teach him as much as possible to not be an entitled little twat, but I can’t stop porn (which was obviously much easier to ‘police’ pre internet with the top shelf magazines and VHS!)

You get what you put up with.

OP, I'm a man and, actually, I agree! That said, I'd be interested in finding the answer to another question: What is it that attracts women to these guys as opposed to the ones who are a bit more mature (they are out there!) You said yourself you married not one but two of them - were there red flags you missed? Or did you go in knowing what they were like but thought the behaviour was charming in some way at first? I'm absolutely not seeking to judge - just genuinely curious.

@TirisfalPumpkin I’ve also noticed the same with the problem getting worse after buying property in particular - maybe because they know it’s harder to leave at that point? I have also had huge problems with nearly all my significant exes preferring porn to the extent that they actually became unable to ejaculate with me.

@TossaCointoYerWitcher I admit there were red flags I missed with one ex (he was lazy and lacked self-discipline but was also incredibly caring and romantic), but others seemed to have a personality transplant as soon as we moved in together or bought property. Refusing to tolerate this kind of behaviour is one of the reasons why I was single for so long.

On the other hand, I think that there is less of the nonsense attitude of demarcation that perhaps prevailed amongst the older generation that certain tasks were 'female' such as housework. It's always very difficult to understand attitudes without access to data and therefore it's anecdotal.

Wow, who'd have thought after three generations of feminism that things were actually so much better in the Good Old Days. Now where did I put those rose-tinted glasses . . .

Oops! Just realised @Onemansoapopera got there first!

Porn is definitely much more of an issue. It's always been there but whereas for previous generations of men it was 'glamour' magazines it's all online and as we know, without the benefit of context, it does feel like a lot of younger men almost want to act out a 'movie' rather than enjoy a healthy sex life.