Rise of the manchildren

[TirisfalPumpkin]

Aware I might be treading on shaky ground here, given that this is a parenting forum. I'm not out and out blaming parents for this phenomenon - I know 'his mother babied him' is the usual excuse, but I'm sure there's more to it than that. I'm trying to understand it better.

It seems a non-trivial % of millennial males are entitled, lazy man-children. I have personally married two of them. They have cost me dearly (both in the 'thousands of pounds' and 'I'm now cynical and don't trust anyone' way). I have read numerous threads here and found myself nodding along to a catalogue of infuriatingly familiar behaviour, so I don't think it's just me.

I mean by 'manchildren': men that are emotionally stunted, have underdeveloped morals and values, respond in childlike ways to adult issues (lie, sulk, whine) and are subconsciously seeking a partner they can put into a motherly role who will carry the mental load of the relationship and household. They often have hobbies that they prioritise over everything else in life. My friendship circles are kind of nerd-culture oriented and it seems to be especially bad here, but I think it is a wider societal phenomenon than just among gamers and geeks.

I am wondering whether there has been some change in the way boys are raised, that makes them more like this - or are girls brought up not to be difficult and therefore challenge it less? Why do their actual parents seem to enable and encourage them when they behave badly towards their spouse? Is society in general becoming more sexist and placing fewer demands on boys and young men? Are there just as many 'womanchildren' out there? My perception is it's largely a male phenomenon but I can think of a couple of counterexamples.

Rants about awful manchild behaviour welcomed too.

So why are these young men still regarding housework as the female domain Isitsixoclockalready?

@TwentyViginti - I can't account for the examples from posters on here ; clearly there is still that attitude from some but we're talking anecdotally. I could just as easily say that plenty of younger men don't have that attitude but without statistical evidence, how can we say if it's some, few or many?

This is nothing new surely?

I also think children are much more spoilt and not disciplined or set strong boundaries.

My reward for years and years of unrelenting making my DS contribute to household tasks was hearing his GF has told her parents he is domesticated and this is seen as a positive. The bad feeling and arguments that have gone on over the years because I refused to give in is considerable. My case wasn’t helped by the fact NONE of his peers were given any kind of domestic responsibility. Now he’s almost 24 and will say what babies a lot of his friends are and can’t do anything for themselves.
In all honesty if I could go back in time and do everything myself and avoid all the bad feeling then I probably would much as I am happy to read this thread and think my DS is not a manchild

I don't mean to say I had no way of knowing at all; some of this is on me, they didn't force me to marry them. I am sure there were red flags, but for whatever reason I didn't see them. I am poor at reading subtext and detecting bullshit. They were clever and funny and tolerant of my oddities. A checklist of traits that show before you buy a house with one of them would be very helpful. One (light hearted) one is that if all his sox/undies come from M&S, his mum still buys them for him - danger.

I have a further thought on the porn/sex thing. I posit that, once they've shoehorned their female partner into the 'mother and household manager' role, they become less sexually and romantically into her (as that'd be weird, she's mum) and so turn to porn more and more. They go from being responsive and sensual partners to occasionally randomly poking you in the boob when they're horny, and if you're not up for this kind of disconnected fumbling your sex life sort of disappears. Eventually you end up with this 'you weren't into sex, I had to cheat on you to avoid pressuring you!'

A lot of my young male colleagues are as woke as you like - all about the rights, for everyone! Yet I often find them more misogynistic than some of the old dinosaur-types I work with. It's just more subtle; the dinosaurs will usually accept you once you've proved you know what you're about. The young wokesters don't.

I think that some women still believe the movie cliche that they can change a man so think that having a baby or whatever will change them. These kinds of men need to be told that "if we have children, your weekday 6 hour gaming sessions after work can't happen" because they assume that the woman wants the baby so she should be willing to sacrifice her free time.

Sometimes women are too capable and are martyrs so this leads some men to take advantage and be selfish. These are the men who claim that they would cook/clean/childcare if their partner told them what to do but they've not asked so it's the woman's fault

If these men were children before marriage and babies they normally remain children. If you want a serious relationship with this kind of man you need to be a woman child while he does his man child stuff and not bring kids into that dysfunction. He needs to be told (like a child) that before he begins a father he needs to learn how to X, Y, Z. There are too many men on here who cope with important complicated jobs at work but can't (won't) do the easy menial tasks like the supermarket shop or pick a weather-appropriate outfit for their child.

I think a man child can be any age?
It's not all the youngsters.
Men often feel entitled. It is a man's world. That is slowly changing but it is much harder for a woman in this world. To get ahead with career, to raise a family, to keep safe from sexual harassment etc etc

Where is the father in all of this 'bad parenting ', why is it called too much mothering if a man turns out like this?

There a lot of posts on MN where women complain their partner doesn't do anything around the house or they are a 'nag'. Even one about he was moaning she made the wrong sandwiches for his lunch!
Why??? Why enable this behaviour.
It's what some women put up with or is their 'normal'.

I'm not really making a point, just responding.

I'm not sure why any woman thinks that having a child with an idiot is going to change them. It's one of the most stressful and expensive periods of our lives - why go through that with someone who's not yet an adult in their ways?

My personal feeling is that the blame lies with things like having removed sports day and competition from schools so that everyone feels 'special' and like a winner.

I can see the thinking that informed these decisions but the reality is that it has bred a generation of people whose feelings are hurt ever so easily and who have very little emotional resilience.

My friend is a GP and he describes what he refers to as The Millenial Condition - essentially young people getting out into the real world and struggling because they fall to earth with a very big bump when they realise the rest of the world a) doesn't think they are as special as mummy and daddy do because everyone's mummy and daddy treats them like they're special; and b) not everyone is going to be 'nice' to them and 'validate' them.

Its everywhere.

My son is 22. He still lives at home because I'm a single parent and he receives no support from his father. Even with the full student loan, he couldn't have afforded to live away from home. But he lives fully independently as an adult in the house. I'm there for guidance and as a sounding board if he needs it but he does all his own cooking, washing and ironing etc. I'm his mum but I'm not his mummy.

I hope to god he doesn't become a giant man child. I dont think he is. And I'll have failed terribly if he is!

I have a weird theory that might not be right or just plain stupid! But - in common with many other women, I had a child with a manchild. Because of the lack of input his father has, I’ve found myself almost overcompensating. Doing too much for my son to try and be two parents.

I wonder if this sort of thing contributes to creating entitled men? In my case I’m working hard on stepping back and encouraging my son to be more independent. I have noticed some entitlement and expectation mum will ‘do it all.’ And I wonder if his father were more hands on (or just even a bit hands on) if that would break the cycle more.

Seems ironic that shitty fathers force the mother to do more - which I think entrenches the learned behaviour that the woman steps up and dad can choose how involved to be. Also our desire to protect our kids and not say ‘well your dad is a lazy twat who can’t be arsed to put any real effort in’ also contributes. It shields our sons from the reality of their shitty fathers AND makes them subconsciously expect the mother will do most if not all of the parenting.

Anyhow that’s my theory!

I really do think that it depends upon what they learn in childhood.

The phrase 'Let children be children' seems to hinge upon everything happening as if by magic when it's usually the task of a woman to do everything behind the scenes. Whether it's a man or a woman saying it, that style of parenting seems to try to keep children as babies for as long as possible, including ensuring that they are absolutely incapable of seeing rubbish or dirty clothes, never mind thinking that they should probably do something about that, and women as invisible servants.

I do agree there's more to it than them being mothered to death
But, this is the major reason.
You read on here women saying they don't get their lads to do much.
Teach them to care for themselves and others, it isn't rocket science.
Mine could do most things by the time they left home, from renovating a house, to ironing their uniform, gardening to decorating.
get them hoovering and washing up, cooking meals.
Otherwise you are doing the man and your future dil a huge disservice.

I would much rather my child have self esteem and be in touch with their emotions then suffer from mental health difficulties as an adult because they were repressed.
Anxiety and depression is rising in children.
I don't think 'mothering ' them makes them in equip to cope as an adult, surely it's giving them the foundations they need?
There are so many posts from women about their partner not being emotionally available. A sensitive child that learns to be kind and thoughtful grows up with that?
I don't think that makes themselves a man child. There are so many other reasons for that.
I don't think it's all parenting.
Parenting is hard. Parents are human and most do their best.

The proliferation of porn, 99% of which is inherently degrading to women and misogynist, has fuelled further entitlement, IME. I'm terrified of what my young adult nieces have experienced. This idea that your girlfriend should be an equal when it comes to finances (as if there is no gender pay gap) and strictly 50/50, but do all the house and lifework AND have a sky high sex drive that includes anal, throttling and having a man ejaculate on your face (often without asking). I have a 14-year-old so far heterosexual daughter and it's frightening.

I guess the best defence is to always maintain your financial independence, even once children come along.

I have two boys and I am raising two manchilds. I'm wracking my brain to see what I could do differently but I'm at a loss.
I'll give you an example. Food: when lockdown started I told them I wasn't their servant so they would be responsible for their own lunches and breakfast. They actually wait for their evening meal. Ok, so I'll try and get them to do the evening meal.. Disney Dad actually gives them enough money to bypass the kitchen and they order in food.
I get them to load their dishes into the dishwasher but I have to ask and ask which usually involves me screaming 'just fucking do it'.
They do keep their toilet clean though. It took me losing it over that though that I didn't expect them to clean my shit and I won't do theirs.
I won't iron their clothes so they wear them creased. I have taught them both how to iron. I have never met such obstinate willful people. Lazy too. I hope to God they don't meet anybody who will put up with this.
That said, surely we should be raising our daughters to tolerate such nonsense? From the off not when the first child arrives and they realise they have been doing more than their fair share.

I think it’s hugely significant that most men will stick with an unhappy (to them) relationship until they’ve lined up another pair of welcoming arms. This says to me that they’d rather be unfulfilled than strike out on their own and take responsibility for their own lives. Most want to be looked after by a woman.

MaeDanvers you completely and utterly nailed what I was about to say.

As a single mum (to boys), I can't help but model the "woman does it all" trope, I have no choice. I've already started telling them that when they're adults they should share responsibility, but it's just words. We know that children learn more from actions than words. And that their dad is their main role model for being a man. God help my future daughters in laws...

I hate this idea that it's the mother's fault

That said, surely we should be raising our daughters to tolerate such nonsense? From the off not when the first child arrives and they realise they have been doing more than their fair share.

Most definitely, totally agree. My dd does most things for herself at 16, and doesn't understand why some of the boys at school are so useless.

It needs to start when they are young, about one.
Toys in the toy box with help from a parent.
Looking after themselves and others should be second nature by the time they are early teens.

I suppose some parents have cleaners and the kids don't follow by example as they don't see parents doing it.
Dishwashers too, great time saver but doing the chore as a family after tea is social too.
One side and tidy, one wash, one dry, one put away etc.
In the garden one weed, one mow, one dead head flowers etc.
It encourages team work.

I hate it too that it's the mothers fault.
My brother was raised by a misogynistic toxic father. He is a man child.
So where is the theory there that it's the mother? His father taught him all he has to know. Is it his mothers fault for allowing the father to do that??

In the case of my OH and my friend's DH , is wasn't being babied that was the issue but neglect, lack of emotion and love, lack of boundaries, no role models .

Friend's DH lived on microwave meals and his mum would leave him alone in hotel rooms so she could go to drink and pick up men. There's obviously other things too.

My OH's mum told me to leave DD in her bed when she was crying, shut the door and turn the radio up loud. His dad is antisocial and in his own world, has even less of a relationship with their children than his mum has.

He has many faults and is still learning how to be an involved,active partner and father, but he is trying.

@LightenUpSummer I'm a lone parent too. I'm blaming their father for leaving me to do the grunt work.

I know anecdotes don't count for much but I'm early 30s and most men my age, including DH, are pretty domesticated. All of them do housework, cook and childcare, including night feeds/wake ups, and two of my friends deliberately picked nurseries next to their husbands' work places so they could do drop-off and pick-ups. It's mostly older men I know (FIL is a prime example), who think their willies will fall off if they touch a vacuum cleaner. That said, my brother is turning into a man child unfortunately. He's 21 and lives at home and still expects my mum to do everything for him. I'm not sure why she puts up with it; I was made to cook and clean from a young age but either she has some inner sexism that's manifested itself in her parenting, or she's a softer touch with the "baby" of the family. I have two boys and will definitely be trying to raise them to do their fair share.

I do think it's getting worse.
My older dc are mid- late twenties and when they were babies the dads I knew were all hands on, they were "modern men" and very capable.

I blame the parents tbh, it's their job to raise their kids to be useful people in society. It's not the mother, it's both responsible for not failing their kids.

Men my age are just as awful (58) lazy, rascist, misogynists who think they deserve a 20 year old or a thai bride.
On the very few dates I've been on with them they have commendted on all my imperfections whilst themselves being bald, fat, toothless and fecking boring as hell.