Rise of the manchildren

[TirisfalPumpkin]

Aware I might be treading on shaky ground here, given that this is a parenting forum. I'm not out and out blaming parents for this phenomenon - I know 'his mother babied him' is the usual excuse, but I'm sure there's more to it than that. I'm trying to understand it better.

It seems a non-trivial % of millennial males are entitled, lazy man-children. I have personally married two of them. They have cost me dearly (both in the 'thousands of pounds' and 'I'm now cynical and don't trust anyone' way). I have read numerous threads here and found myself nodding along to a catalogue of infuriatingly familiar behaviour, so I don't think it's just me.

I mean by 'manchildren': men that are emotionally stunted, have underdeveloped morals and values, respond in childlike ways to adult issues (lie, sulk, whine) and are subconsciously seeking a partner they can put into a motherly role who will carry the mental load of the relationship and household. They often have hobbies that they prioritise over everything else in life. My friendship circles are kind of nerd-culture oriented and it seems to be especially bad here, but I think it is a wider societal phenomenon than just among gamers and geeks.

I am wondering whether there has been some change in the way boys are raised, that makes them more like this - or are girls brought up not to be difficult and therefore challenge it less? Why do their actual parents seem to enable and encourage them when they behave badly towards their spouse? Is society in general becoming more sexist and placing fewer demands on boys and young men? Are there just as many 'womanchildren' out there? My perception is it's largely a male phenomenon but I can think of a couple of counterexamples.

Rants about awful manchild behaviour welcomed too.

LexMitior Do they know that though? I’m pretty sure my ex felt that doing a crap job was perfectly justified because it wasn’t his job. After a couple of years he found a woman who will parent him and our children. I worry about his new partner because our children are not her responsibility. The peace of mind knowing the children will be actually looked after is wonderful but guilt inducing.

Yes they know it’s neglectful unless their own upbringing was really degraded. I’m sure they do think it’s your job and you are being difficult in asking them to do these things.

But there are of course men who do take great care of their children and so that is real horse shit that they don’t know what needs to happen. I know a few full time single dads. They do a great job. It’s all about the attitude of the man.

I’m not sure who wanted children remains relevant once the children exist if the family unit is still in place.

They exist, both parents are responsible for their welfare but there is an enormous gap between the sexes about how that responsibility is upheld. That’s not an individual issue, it’s a societal problem.

Blaming women for shaming women or fawning over men is ultimately not helpful and fails to recognise where the problem comes from. Blaming men for shaming involved fathers or endorsing them not being involved is the same. We are all products of our societal and cultural conditioning and the the differences in how this applies to women or men as a class has not changed to meet everyday life for the majority.

I too know some single Dad’s who have their children 50:50 or higher. They hate being lauded for doing normal things and notice reduced expectations. It’s not working for them either.

I think it is a culmination of factors:
Mollycoddling of children generally.
DC don't play out, mummy/daddy are there monitoring every interaction. DC don't learn by trial and error.
DC not being prepared for adulthood but experiencing extended childhood. The age where children start to spread wings 14-19 is now suppressed and they are restricted in working , leaving school, whereas previous generations would have had jobs/weekend/paper rounds.
DC don't even go to uni open days without mummy and daddy in tow. Not just because they don't drive and need a lift but going round on the tours, talking to tutors like it is a extended 6th form.
Lack of trade training from mid teens. DGM worked in a factory, DGF was a butchers assistant at school leaving age (14). The culture has changed so they are children for 10 more years. They are then set in their ways.
Low expectations made of DC generally. You see it on here all the time. DC that can't make a bed aged 18 never mind 8. Unable to do even basic chores. Parents who do everything for their DC. I have a colleague whose DC do absolutely nothing. He says he wants his DC to concentrate on schoolwork and being children. They are mid teens.

DD used to do a sport. The training was quite tough and required not just physical effort but mental effort. Her instructor had to restructure his lessons because the kids couldn't cope with the intensity anymore. Parents complained their DC couldn't do it.
Men grow up wanting to swop mummy for a wife. They want a 'single' life without the effort of a LT relationship but like the fantasy of family life. .
I don't think it is just men. There are a lot of juvenile women out there who then have DC but are unable to cope with the ups and downs of relationships and then shout 'victim blaming' at anyone who points out they are as bad as the dysfunctional men they breed with. They have made poor life choices and are now linked to the losers for life. (not talking about DV)

Low expectations of men. The 'boys will be boys' mantra. Fine but what about the men they will be.
Although I think a lack of defined roles does lead some men and women to lose sight of the expectations, they need the stereotypical role as a guidance. They struggle to understand what is expected of them. In a previous generation they would have been accepted/acceptable.

God that was longer than I thought! I do find it a fascinating subject thought!

I think a little of this also has to do with how a man presents himself. Women have to be ruthless in eliminating time wasters, players, men children. They will not suddenly change. A man at 25 in terms of his attitude is all he ever will be. The idea he will change at all is mistaken.

One of the very revealing things about how calculating men can be in relationships with children was when I stopped dating them and had relationships with women. It was like night and day. While relationships aren’t simple with anyone, the issue on domestics literally was never a thing. Not once.

I only fully matured emotionally around age 27 or so. I feel that in this day and age life is far too convenient and easy. Most people in the younger generations have never had to fear their life taken away, or they haven't had to fight for their life as in a war or conflicted.
Also technology has replaced so many things such as skills, necessary actions of natural life etc. Technology has offered up great convenience but at a price. Social media also has bred a lack of empathy, self centred nature and a lack of person to person socialisation skills.

It’s not exactly an easy sell. Men be equal parents, spilt the domestic duties, work and cut your leisure time. Why would men want that when their predecessors had go to work and please yourself for leisure time facilitated by women doing everything else? Women are motivated to work for personal gain.

@BobbinThreadbare123
I hear you !! I have worked with young professionals who have never gone into a shop to buy milk & can not distinguish between full fat, semi skimmed and skimmed ! Vegan almond or oat milk, never heard of it, and yet they are technical/IT whizzkids !
They usually need babysitting, sorry micro managing. Some of it is caused by their parents doing everything for them, but I have known of at least one person brought up in the care system, who showed a complete lack of understanding of other people or of basic courtesy.

Well this comes down to the “sell”. Women may not want a man who does less than that. It is her life. Does she want children if it does not happen? Someone once said on here that the choice to have children for women is to be ready to raise them alone. That is really the essence of it.

Interesting discussion. What is it that's meant by manchild though? Is it a man who who appears to have had no experience of basic domestic tasks, household admin or childcare ? Or does it also include men who have lived independently and take on some household/parenting tasks but nothing like their fair share?

Depending on the definition, the explanation might differ quite markedly.

Also, has their been a 'rise' or is it simply the case that there have always been men who play a full part in family life while others have always let the burden fall in their partners? Could it also be possible that more men now fall into the former category now than in the past but that those who don't are more conspicuous due to being at odds with current expectations?

I think a 'man child', is a male who instead of behaving like a fully formed adult who understands the way of the world and the space he occupies in that world, continues to have the emotional development of a toddler and the individual expectations of a tween.
There's a lot of it about too.

Unfortunately woman have had to fight for things like being able to work and go out and earn a decent wage, whereas men havent forght to stay at home and do the 'wifework'. So we now have quite a few men in this inbetween generation who had the traditional roles growing up where mummy would do everything for the men folk, but then move in with a female partner where it is fully acceptable that the woman may be the breadwinner. The only problem with the shift is that some of these men expect a woman to go to work but also expect a mummy at home to bottom wipe for them.

I have sympathy for the concept of grudging doing the domestic churn and caring stuff. I don’t have sympathy for the idea that one person can say yeah it’s all yours, not in any set up but particularly not when both work.

I put my definition of a manchild on the OP, but it’s by no means the definitive one. I haven’t formally studied them, although if any social scientists want to, please post your findings!

The point about what women are offering is an interesting one which I’m going to assume is made in good faith. It’s possible (likely, even) it has changed and men have been surprised and disappointed by it. It should follow, if that is the case, that they don’t seek out relationships with women that fail their personal cost/benefit and go full mgtow. They don’t seem to be saying ‘no thanks’ to our offering in large numbers. The archetypical manchild doesn’t like to be single, although I am wondering if there is a growing unofficial wgtow movement developing, partly in response to this. Just been talking to a IRL friend who expresses similar sentiments, had several LTRs and found men immature and disappointing so going to focus on her female friendships and hobbies.

When we die out as a species I’m blaming the manchildren.

I think a lot of it is to with the cost of living out the house and higher expectations. I'm a millennial and was lucky enough to have a relatively wealthy family and moved in to a flat. My rent was pain but my loan and job made up fly income. I didn't have much money but had low expectations. I had cheap clothes and ate total rubbish. I didn't mind. I never went home.

I think younger millennials aren't willing to live like this. They seem to want to live in really nice places and have a very expensive lifestyle. The receptionist at my work is 24. She has no desire to move out of her mums. She spends all her money on handbags and nights out. Literally had Michelin star dinners and Chanel accessories. She's not saving or paying rent and likes the face her mum does everything. I think boys are even more likely to behave like this. They seem to lack the independence of girls or the desire to do things for themselves. I do blame their parents. If you live under my roof you do your own washing, tidy your own room and pay rent.

@TirisfalPumpkin
I think you're referring to a comment I made and it was genuinely in good faith (though I could see why you might think otherwise). It's just thatr there are economics at play here.
If men are in relationships with women, the woman expresses her wants and the man says no, but the relationship just continues as normal whilst the woman complains on Mumsnet, the outcome is pretty obvious.
If women started outright rejecting it in mass, maybe you'd see a change in men's behaviour, but also you might not. I also think that when the default assumptions is that these men are just wrong in regards to what they want doesn't help anyone.
If you're a heterosexual man or woman, other heterosexual men and women are the only game in town. Apart from just swearing off relationships, obviously but the people who do that (man or woman) tend to seem unhappy.