Rise of the manchildren

[TirisfalPumpkin]

Aware I might be treading on shaky ground here, given that this is a parenting forum. I'm not out and out blaming parents for this phenomenon - I know 'his mother babied him' is the usual excuse, but I'm sure there's more to it than that. I'm trying to understand it better.

It seems a non-trivial % of millennial males are entitled, lazy man-children. I have personally married two of them. They have cost me dearly (both in the 'thousands of pounds' and 'I'm now cynical and don't trust anyone' way). I have read numerous threads here and found myself nodding along to a catalogue of infuriatingly familiar behaviour, so I don't think it's just me.

I mean by 'manchildren': men that are emotionally stunted, have underdeveloped morals and values, respond in childlike ways to adult issues (lie, sulk, whine) and are subconsciously seeking a partner they can put into a motherly role who will carry the mental load of the relationship and household. They often have hobbies that they prioritise over everything else in life. My friendship circles are kind of nerd-culture oriented and it seems to be especially bad here, but I think it is a wider societal phenomenon than just among gamers and geeks.

I am wondering whether there has been some change in the way boys are raised, that makes them more like this - or are girls brought up not to be difficult and therefore challenge it less? Why do their actual parents seem to enable and encourage them when they behave badly towards their spouse? Is society in general becoming more sexist and placing fewer demands on boys and young men? Are there just as many 'womanchildren' out there? My perception is it's largely a male phenomenon but I can think of a couple of counterexamples.

Rants about awful manchild behaviour welcomed too.

Well all I am saying is that if a man has a good role model, he’s not likely to be swayed by a guy like you describe. He will be better centred than that because he can see a better way to be.

I’m not saying you wouldn’t be intrigued, just that’s not really something that a young man who has another stable father figure in his life is going to be really swayed by.

There’s a separate point about women attached to men who treat them poorly as described in the lyrics. But if you are raising kids, do you say it is okay to call people bitch? No. It’s really obvious that is not okay. What kind of upbringing do you need to have to say that it is?

Firstly I think the fact that you've married two people like this shows that some women are willing to accept this as the norm. It isn't or at least it doesn't have to be.

In my experience the men I know are generally great fathers, share the load as they should etc and have done since their late 20's/30's whenever they had a family. Their wives have fulfilling careers and we have more nights out than the husbands. No way would I accept someone who didn't pull their weight. Through my work I meet deadbeat dads, usually got to that point due to a range of drugs/ alcohol/ poverty etc.

I married a man who was brought up by his dad and he was very independent, and when I met him had his own place that he kept clean, held down a job for several years etc. I think having good same sex role models in your life is important. I could be as confident as I could be that my dh would be a team player. He's still a pain in the hole sometimes though .....

My mum absolutely pampered my brother. Not so us girls. I have so many relatives and friends who grew up in the same situation. We had our dads around but they're normally so exasperated by situation that they eventually don't get involved (which is still wrong).

It's frowned upon to say it but it is usually a case of boys being spoiled by their mum. Years ago there was a FB 'tag' going around "My Son is my Sun". So naff. I'd roll my eyes and think 'Why isn't your daughter your 'Star' then?. I have 2 DDs in their 20s, I've never minced words about the importance of avoiding these useless manchildren looking for a skivvy.

Well all I am saying is that if a man has a good role model, he’s not likely to be swayed by a guy like you describe. He will be better centred than that because he can see a better way to be.

I think that's the point, a lot of men don't have good male role models anymore. If they haven't got a good father and the top of the music charts are dominated by rappers singing about bitches and he's got constant access to hardcore pornography on his phone/laptop then that's not going to help him relate to women, or become a well adjusted adult.

Culture does not help.

Both my exdp were raised in middle class house hold with both parents present and they are both man children.

They both take no parent responsibility for their children. I have two with exh and one with last exp.

It has confused me to no end. I don't get how two men can be raised happily, with comfort, home and both parents but seem to not want to provide the same for their dc.

Even small things such as going to football club every weekend with their dad as children. Instead of copying this with their dc, they just go play football every weekend as adult and want to collect dc later.

My dc are just lucky to have my grandad who worked from age 11 and my dad who was raised in care but want to give his family the life he didn't.

So the men who grew up with Dad’s who came home to their dinner on the table and did some “blue” jobs at the weekend were better off?

It’s not about whether there’s a man in the house, it’s about all children contributing. Not for pocket money, or treats or praise but because they are old enough to do it. It’s about housework not happening invisibly. It’s about learning that stuff needs done even if you don’t fancy it or get a personal benefit out of it. It’s about learning that no one has the right to only do what they want to at the expense of someone else’s labour and lack of personal time. Children are capable of more than fun and school, doing age appropriate chores won’t result in them collapsing under the strain and needing therapy.

One reason is a lack of good adult male role models shown on TV and in films. These men grew up with shows that portrayed the women as superhuman-successful career and most involved and capable parent. The husband-dad always portrayed as comic relief, bumbling around, incompetent, clueless and with a hobby that appeals to all ages. Even dramas with male and female leads, eg X files showed the female agent as the more senior, experienced and smarter of the two. The male agent would go charging in and make a mess that the female agent would then clean up effortlessly while rescuing him.

It’s one reason why an entire generation of men now think that this is their function in any relationship work or romantic.

I have wondered if the last generation of non-manchildren were my dad's generation, who did National Service. They were forced, from (I think, I'm a bit hazy in my memory of what he told me, and he's no longer around to ask) 18 to join up for 18 months. They learned to march, to wash and iron their clothes to inspection standards, to mend, to care for themselves and even in some cases to cook. They were taken away from their families, so mum couldn't 'help out'.

My dad used to cook, clean the house, take us to school and be an equal parent. I was horrified when I first started dating, to find that my generation of men seemed to think that a woman had to do everything in the house.

My dad had two sisters, and was the baby of the family, so I can only put down his self sufficiency and 'un-manchild' ways to National Service.

That perception of a man as a joke while the woman is a superhero is awful. It is deeply sexist and screams “strategic incompetence”. Also very unattractive. Do you want such a man? No! How could you desire someone who still dresses like they are 14 (and the hobbies and their porn use match).

I think that since roles and responsibilities have become more blurred so to speak it’s much easier for men to duck out of their responsibilities. In previous generations if you wanted a girlfriend/wife/home/family you had to work to provide it. There was no choice in being lazy if you wanted to get on you had to get up and actually do it.

With roles much more defined by gender is was easy to know what to expect of each other. The man went out to work, the woman kept the home and raised the children. Men judged other men if they were work shy, and men wanted to look good to other men, not just women. People were held more accountable and respect was given and traded with those who were likeminded. As a woman a man going out to work and providing for the family was the very minimum you would expect, and as parent it was the minimum you’d expect of your son You would be openly disappointed and ashamed if your son didn’t work or look after his family, doing a good job at these things were the mark of being known as a good man. What we consider a good man these days has changed massively from what was expected in times gone by. I think perhaps even men don’t know what a good man is or should be these days. If they do, a vast majority are completely unconcerned with being a good man, for themselves, their family or others. A large part of this I think, is as society has become more tolerant nobody judges you anymore, not openly anyway. Women have always been judged, we are used to it and we ARE concerned with what others think regardless of being judged or not. It is important to us to be thought of as a good mother, good employee, wife, cook whatever. I think a lot of men don’t give two hoots, or perhaps just enough for a bit of performance parenting, or for an obligatory push around of the Hoover once a week.

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying the past was all great, it wasn’t, especially so for women. All I’m saying is back then everyone knew what to expect, and it was more obvious if you weren’t doing it.

Compare that to now and the nice man you meet who works a full time job might work really hard at work but you’ve no idea if he ever takes charge of his children at home, or if he takes equal responsibility for cleaning the loo and other household chores. He could still be that nice hard working guy and get treated as such and never lift so much as a finger at home whilst ignoring his children’s existence. That man still gets all the benefits of work and home, respect among his peers and the proud love of his parents. No one other than his wife/partner will tell him he is not living up to expectations or doing his fair share, and after a while she will give up and put up with it or leave, but no woman ever takes leaving and breaking up a her children’s family easily. For years a man will get his every comfort and a woman will be breaking her fingers to the bone working in a job, looking after kids and home and if she does leave by the time she’s left how many years has that man gotten away with doing so much less??? All for him to go and find someone younger and naive and do the same thing all over again, whilst the first wife is still left holding the baby/children and doing everything else she was before bar one useless lump of a man.

I don’t know what the answer is, but things certainly need to change!!

"Is society in general becoming more sexist and placing fewer demands on boys and young men? "

Does anyone really look back at earlier decades and think that men were less less sexist? Probably men are on average doing a bit more with regards to house and children, just not enough to keep up with increasing expectations.

What expectations?
It looks more like that nothing is expected from men these days.

@TossaCointoYerWitcher

To be honest, I'm surprised no-one mentions the pop culture these young people grow up with.

I mean, it's all well and good to lecture people about the patricahy, etc but it kind of gets lost when you're constantly listening to rappers boasting about how the treat woman as disposable goods and female singer likewise crooning about how they love bad boys, etc.

Off the top of my head, take Aitch who's one of apparently one of the most celebrated British rappers of the moment. He was nominated for Brits. Regularly playlisted on Radio 1. Reached number 3 with "Taste" which also happens to feature this "interesting" lyric:

"Ay, Gucci buckle with a snake on it
These Amiri denims, bitch, put your face on it
I'm tryna fuck, why this bitch tryna talk to me?"

You get female Radio 1 DJs who (rightly) support pro-feminist messages then interview this guy and laud him. Plenty of female teenagers who stream his records and dance to them. Now, I'm not saying he should be censored however can people not see how this leads to massive mixed messages for young, impressionable men? How this, in turn, might lead them to not then take feminist messages seriously?

And he's only one of many, many examples I could cite. The whole pop industry is largely full of mysoginistic lyrics and behaviour. They're practically encouraged.

What's a young man to aspire to? He hears these songs getting to to the top of the charts. So, of course, he's going to think "okay, that's the kind of guy women want, even if they don't admit it".

I don't agree. It, frankly, hugely frustrates me. But it is what it is.

I remember being out for a day with my kids in the car. They will have all been young teens/just pre teen (they are all close in age). Middle DD remarked on liking a certain rap song when it came on the radio. So I said 'have you listened to the lyrics?' and turned the volume up.

There was silence.

My girls have grown up extremely strong women and my sons are (as far as I can tell) equal partners and self sufficient around the house.

You can never start too young pointing out how shit women are sometimes treated in the media!

I think there are heavier demands on young adults than previous generations faced, even if the general social conditions, wealth, plenty, equality etc are better.

IE working in the local factory all your life and never going outside the UK was pretty normal and in no way an 'unsuccessful' life, but it's not okay to be mediocre any more, and I think it's even more pronounced for the current yoof. I think these men are trying to opt out of as many responsibilities as possible while avoiding the 'loser basement dweller' tag, which IMO is more of a stigma for a man. Some women do this too, but (in my circle at least) self-diagnosing vague disability and/or oppressed identity seems to be the preferred opt out among women.

I can also confirm that both of my manchildren husbands came from pretty normal families, one with divorced parents, but both with decent-seeming and involved dads. This is why I'm leaning towards thinking the problem is cultural rather than to do with how boys are parented.

I don't think male offspring of single mums are any more likely to follow the manchild track than anyone else, so I hope those of you parenting boys alone don't feel attacked. In fact I salute you and will say 'rather you than me'.

My son grew up without his father. He saw him occasionally but he didn’t have any real influence.

My ds is not a whinging man child. He’s a grown up puppy, soft hearted, caring, respectful and responsible. And as l said he’s also a gamer.

I don’t remember getting him to do many chores tbh. But l do remember telling him not to mess women around lots of times...... and he doesn’t.

And he shares my hatred of mysoginistic music

I agree with the views on most rap music, but for an alternative viewpoint, try Lil Kim! Feminist, funny and often fabulously rude.

My parents’ marriage epitomised stereotyped gender roles in many ways. Dad put the wages on the table and did no domestic chores whatsoever, used to plonk his dirty clothes on the floor and wait for mum to pick them up. He wasn’t a bad person but he was of his era, very withdrawn emotionally and I know my mum found it frustrating to be in a relationship with him in spite of loving him. I grew up thinking marriage did not look a great bet and thinking I had no power to change anything. I’m in my 50s and have met a fair number of entitled blokes who firmly believe they should get their pick of women. I was watching the docu’ about page 3 girls last night and it was depressing stuff. All we’ve done is move it on line and make it more violent.

I’ve met young men in their 20s and 30s so lovely and emotionally mature that I wish I was that age again!

No answers here, I guess! Madcatlady. I hear you! Been given the eye by a few lovely, smart and interesting gay women in my time and, yeah, I’m still straight.

I am so tired of hearing people say that sexism was the norm for the older generation. My parents are in their mid 70s. They were young during the Swinging 60s - it wasn’t WWII. The fight for equality was a big part of their lives and men doing their fair share was the norm when I was growing up. We have to stop thinking about sexist attitudes as being something that we have only just emerged from. That may be true in your families but it’s not true for a lot of families. Both of my grandmothers worked outside the home and they were the WWII generation. We are long, long past the time when we could say ‘what do you expect from the older generation?!’

As for men being useless, I don’t think there’s as big a difference between generations as some posts suggest. There have always been some who want to get away with being feckless and lazy and sexist. It’s not women’s fault at all but I would absolutely love to see women collectively raise their standards so that men don’t get away with it. I see too many women putting up with this shit - there are so many threads on here about men who are terrible husbands and fathers. But the fact that they get to be husbands and fathers is ultimately a woman’s decision.

It's really interesting, from being small children me and my brother were given chores - not only tidying up toys or managing our own stuff, but also age appropriate things that helped around the house e.g folding laundry, dusting, hoovering, helping change beds, washing /drying up etc It was made quite clear to us that it was all of our home and therefore we all had a responsibility towards keeping it clean and tidy. We also made our own breakfasts and school packed lunches

You see so many threads on here where people expect absolutely nothing of their children, even into their teens, and then seem shocked that they have become lazy and entitled and expect everything done for them.

We are doing our children a disservice by bending over backwards to make their lives easy at every turn. So many people seem to think that never upsetting their children is fundamental to parenting but these people have to leave home eventually and just can't cope in the real world - they still expect everything done for them

The other thing that doesn't help is that a lot of young women love the idea of playing house/making everything perfect for their other half to start with. By the time they get fed up of doing all the house/mental load stuff they have already set the tone for their relationship and get push back when they try to change it

@Fattyboom

The other thing that doesn't help is that a lot of young women love the idea of playing house/making everything perfect for their other half to start with. By the time they get fed up of doing all the house/mental load stuff they have already set the tone for their relationship and get push back when they try to change it

Love this thread!

Spot on Fattyboom, I was guilty of this. I wanted to ‘care’ for my DH and be a kind and loving DW since he went out to work and brought home the bacon. What I stupidly overlooked was that I too worked full time . I soon realised that he never saw any of this ‘loving kindness’ as anything other than my duty as a wife. He took it totally for granted. I did 90% of the housework and mental load. All he had to think about was his job. When this penny dropped I tried to change the dynamic but i failed. It led to arguments and eventually he cheated because I was a ‘nag and a whiner’ and didn’t have his dinner on the table. I didn’t really progress in my career because I didn’t stay behind for meetings or networking. I was exhausted from trying to work full time and be a full time wife and homemaker. His career soared because its all he had to think about. His Mother said she hadn’t brought him up like that. He was brought up to do chores from day one. I know I made a rod for my own back . I divorced him because of the cheating but realise it was partly of my own making that he became so entitled! If I had my time over again and knew what I know now things would have been very different.

I now realise It is down to women to raise their standards. They must mark their line in the sand from the start and be prepared to cut their losses and walk away when a man proves he’s an entitled man-child, regardless of circumstances. Take care of your career and don’t allow a man to affect your financial well being. That’s the only way you can make best decision for your future. You need to be able to base your decision on how you are being treated, not on whether you can afford to leave. Whilst men hold the financial power, they hold power over you. My Ex often told me this. In fact he once said when pressuring me for sex that he pays for me (meaning he earned more) therefore he was entitled to sex on demand! He said all wives were prostitutes by another name! He was an entitled ar$eh0le.

I now realise It is down to women to raise their standards
Spot on.
You only need to read the threads on here to see that women put up with so much shite. It's astonishing to read, it really is.

Luckily for me, my dad did so much. He did 80% of the cooking. He made our clothes. He did a lot of the cleaning. My mum was always out about with us girls.
So my model growing up was that men do loads.
I've never done ExH or ExP ironing. They did their own washing. ExH was a good cook and did most of that. ExP also liked to cook.
I've never been one to buy presents of OH's parents, siblings or anything like that. Their family, they sort it out!

Women absolutely have to raise their bars.

It's getting ludicrous!

Totally agree.
They're very often women who've had the benefit of a good education, career oriented, financially reasonably well off and emotionally/psychologically as 'normal', as you can get.
And yet, so many of them have this mad propensity for shacking up with man children then wringing their hands in horror when the partner won't work, carry some of the load or just act like a reasonable human being..
It upsets me.
These are lovely young women who, for some reason, think they only deserve the worst not the best that life has to offer.
It's heartbreaking to witness.
But whilst the boundaries are so porous and the expectations so low, it will sadly continue into the next generation.

I am so tired of hearing people say that sexism was the norm for the older generation.

My parents long gone now, but when they had us 3 girls in the 60'd their roles were very equal.
Dad came home at 5.30 from his office job, cycled as cars too expensive even for engineers, then took over night times. For a while this included caring for his mil, helping to lift her. No ss support then, you looked after your family yourself.
He'd do bedtime routine with us, and the only night off he had was either a union meeting, he was a foreman, or his camera club on a wednesday night.
All weekends he'd be at home with the family.
Men actually cared about their families then, no disappearing for weekend hobbies leaving mum to do it all.
Today's men are absolute jokes, mostly.