Rise of the manchildren

[TirisfalPumpkin]

Aware I might be treading on shaky ground here, given that this is a parenting forum. I'm not out and out blaming parents for this phenomenon - I know 'his mother babied him' is the usual excuse, but I'm sure there's more to it than that. I'm trying to understand it better.

It seems a non-trivial % of millennial males are entitled, lazy man-children. I have personally married two of them. They have cost me dearly (both in the 'thousands of pounds' and 'I'm now cynical and don't trust anyone' way). I have read numerous threads here and found myself nodding along to a catalogue of infuriatingly familiar behaviour, so I don't think it's just me.

I mean by 'manchildren': men that are emotionally stunted, have underdeveloped morals and values, respond in childlike ways to adult issues (lie, sulk, whine) and are subconsciously seeking a partner they can put into a motherly role who will carry the mental load of the relationship and household. They often have hobbies that they prioritise over everything else in life. My friendship circles are kind of nerd-culture oriented and it seems to be especially bad here, but I think it is a wider societal phenomenon than just among gamers and geeks.

I am wondering whether there has been some change in the way boys are raised, that makes them more like this - or are girls brought up not to be difficult and therefore challenge it less? Why do their actual parents seem to enable and encourage them when they behave badly towards their spouse? Is society in general becoming more sexist and placing fewer demands on boys and young men? Are there just as many 'womanchildren' out there? My perception is it's largely a male phenomenon but I can think of a couple of counterexamples.

Rants about awful manchild behaviour welcomed too.

Can’t say I’ve ever been drawn to cleaning though. It’s just been impressed on me that girls should be clean while boys can get messy. So that pressure extends to our surroundings.

@DwayneBenzie

This thread was really interesting and then some men showed up and gave us the benefit of their ‘insight’ and now it has sadly become boring and predictable.

Actually, I don’t mind men contributing because it means that 1) they care enough to read what we are thinking and 2) feel comfortable enough to share what they think

We have to recognise that men are raised with a whole different set of messages about expectations, identity as to what a man is, etc. It’s only through improved communication between the sexes that any changes can happen. It’s not an us vs them, but all of us against the social paradigm that both girls and boys are born into.

An opposite perspective - my DH is great. I'm not saying he has no flakes, we all do but...

When he gets up in the morning he will crack on with chores, leaving me asleep while he does the dishwasher, laundry, etc.

He makes me breakfast every day and lunch most days (I also do my fair share).

Anyway he was brought up by a very strong, feminist mother and a lovely, very hands on father. His father actually took early retirement to take care of the home as his wife (MIL) opened her own private physio practice and was working long-ish hours.

Basically my DH takes after his lovely father and has no problem with me being a strong, feminist woman.

So basically that seems like a good set-up.

I don't know to what degree they made him do chores, but they definitely made him have a job.

I have also had to enforce strong boundaries at times though...he's not always very resourceful but I make a joke out of it (and refuse to take up the slack) so that he has to be resourceful.

Wheresmymojo presumably when you have refused to take up the slack your children’s well being was not as risk? There’s a line in there that very few parents will cross that separates refusal to step in with child neglect. It’s that line that forces women and men to do more than their partner.

I think it's a mixture of being mollycoddled by their parents and then having relationships with girls who have been raised to think that it's their duty to 'nature'/look after their partner.

I moved in with someone when I was 23 and he was 25 and his inability to do even the most basic chores ruined the relationship. I put up with it because my self-esteem was awful and I thought he would change. He didn't cook once while we were together and stopped eating the food I cooked because it meant cleaning up afterwards, so I'd come home at 7pm and have to cook my own dinner while he had chicken nuggets and chips for the 100th night in a row. We broke up and he's now back living with his parents at 28. They're very kind and generous people but they did everything for him as a child and so I ended up carrying the mental load in the relationship while he only ever thought about what was right in front of him, which was usually his xbox. It's a real shame because he was a lovely person, but just so lazy and couldn't see beyond his own needs.

6lthe biggest manchild I have known is now mid 50s. It is not new.

@DwayneBenzie

This thread was really interesting and then some men showed up and gave us the benefit of their ‘insight’ and now it has sadly become boring and predictable.

I agree totally. It's obvious that they came on this thread to troll, play the victim and blame women/mothers for everything instead of sorting themselves. Imagine saying that cleaning is a "primal thing" for some women. Also, apparently girls won't "get off their arses and exercise" that's just more blatant lies. Funny how they ignored the points I raised about how boys and men are obsessed with porn and video games. Doesn't fit their agenda, you see.

Someone literally said "what's wrong with playing video games 24/7?". Well, if you have to ask what's wrong with wasting your life then you've already got your answer. The whole education thing too was crazy. Then earlier someone commented on how 50 years of feminism (more like over 100 but don't bother yourself with facts I guess) has had us longing for "the good old days" just because we don't want men to be manchildren...yeah that makes a lot of sense🙄

I think men children play their cards differently according to what they can get away with.

One of my exes is a good cook. Does he cook for his partner now? No. He claims to not know how.

Is she being mugged off into doing more domestic tasks while he plays games? Absolutely.

Help me darling, I need help. I am a child that will share your bed. Whoever said that’s what these men offer is dead on.

Because some women pander to their sons because they have a penis.Allowing them to do little to nothing in the home doing all their washing/cooking etc .I've seen it so many times before.

Men in general today are just hardwork and entitled. Not all men of course but a lot.Hence why I choose to stay single.

There are two fundamental issues with this, the male socialisation that creates them and the female socialisation that creates women who get into relationships with them. The other issue is the men who turn into a manchild post children where a woman has limited pushback due to impact on children’s well-being.

I’m guilty of getting into a relationship with one, failing to recognise how much of the load I was carrying pre-children which then became crippling post children. It took me a long time to realise it wasn’t going to change but I am much happier as a single parent than one who should have had support. As others have said, women need to reject their take care of everything and everyone conditioning and kick men to the kerb who don’t pull their weight before having children.

Maternity leave is a time where it is very easy to slide into doing everything which then requires a pushback on return to work. The couples I’ve seen where the man takes 3 months or more of solo shared parental leave seem to do better with this but I’m sure that some women have a dreadful experience with this where they come home and facilitate everything for the Dad on leave. Or are bullied into giving up maternity leave and have their partner at home but doing nothing. It’s abuse. We know that pregnancy is a time where abuse can start or escalate. We need to support women in recognising partner abuse in all its forms and help them to leave. I think it should be part of the school curriculum for both sexes alongside modelling and discussion at home.

Adult men can shape up or ship out. Adult men need to put their own house in order, it’s not women’s responsibility.

The age-based generalisations in this thread are ridiculous. Some men in their 20s expect a woman to do all the housework and child rearing. Some men in their 60s did/do everything 50/50. Age plays a role but not a significant one, and there's definitely no justification for thinking 'all men of (certain age group) are manchildren'.

Research suggests level of education is more of a factor than age - this poll news.gallup.com/poll/283979/women-handle-main-household-tasks.aspx shows that in the US when both parents have a degree, women do the majority of the childcare in 55% of cases, and men do it in 45% of cases. That's close to the national population split. I know this study is US only, but thinking about this in terms of age differences isn't reliable according to that data.

Have any social scientists on the thread seen any research on attitudes by age? There was a study done in Australia that showed the total time spent by women on housework has decreased over the past 30 years, but that done by men has not increased. www.jstor.org/stable/23267812?seq=1 However this doesn't compare different age groups.

I agree that male age is not a significant factor but I wonder whether the woman’s age is a factor in whether she accepts the behaviour.

Age, education, economic status are all relevant in how much of a problem it is within a relationship. You can’t compare a household in a traditionally heavy industry area where the man is now unemployed and the woman is the main earner in a traditionally female low income job with a high earning 3rd tier educated household who can buy in services which camouflage the issues.

@HH160bpm

I agree that male age is not a significant factor but I wonder whether the woman’s age is a factor in whether she accepts the behaviour.

Age, education, economic status are all relevant in how much of a problem it is within a relationship. You can’t compare a household in a traditionally heavy industry area where the man is now unemployed and the woman is the main earner in a traditionally female low income job with a high earning 3rd tier educated household who can buy in services which camouflage the issues.

Exactly. The whole idea of Millennials is just totally stupid and distracts us thinking about where the real problem areas are with attitudes. I've worked on this professionally and there are sooooooo many areas - attitudes to family, what people value, what people want from the workplace, you name it - where the difference between age cohorts are within the margin of error!

YRGAM I’m very interested in your professional knowledge of this. I’m coming at it as an amateur who grew up and moved away from a heavy industry area and is now surrounded by 3rd tier educated families. I see massive problems in my former area due to the lack of traditional jobs for men and the impact of this on family dynamics is huge on all ages. The wealthier families who are able to buy in help have much less daily friction but the underlying attitudes are frequently the same but the reasons behind them are very different. A man who is professionally employed in a white collar job has a different set of reasons for avoiding domestic churn from a former head of the family and main earner who is now unemployed and has lost his sense of status.

Not as interesting as it sounds I'm afraid - I work in marketing where the millennial myth is very widespread, so part of my work involves arguing against it.

To be honest I do have some sympathy for proper blue collar, old-school workers doing less around the house - if you've spent all day building ships or carrying bricks around you're probably more entitled to put your feet up at home than if you've had 8 hours sending emails and scrolling through Twitter.

@MaxNormal

The girls in my life have been drawn to cleaning

What does "drawn to cleaning" mean? And why are you going out with girls, not adult women?

I can only speak from my own experience as far as cleaning is concerned and can honestly say I absolutely detest it BUT what I hate more is filth. I have normal expectations of cleanliness and hygiene around the house but many men I’ve dated/married have accused me of being ocd about cleaning. By expecting them to clean up after them selves I was accused of being fussy. I expect anyone living with me wipe the toilet seat after using it. Clean down the bath/shower after using it and clear up the kitchen and wipe down the worktops after using it. Everything else should be shared. It’s basic respect for the other people in your household. I was horrified when it became apparent that these men hadn’t been brought up to do this basic level of cleaning and these were mostly well educated men with good responsible jobs. I expected them to have the same standards as me. Who wants to sit on a toilet that someone else has dribbled on or get into a bath or shower with soap scum and pubes stuck all over them! I was often told by these men that I would have to clean it myself if I was ‘that fussy’ or lower my standards! Needless to say many relationships ended due to this lack of basic standards. I often wondered if they ended up with women who just went around clearing up their sh*t or if they eventually upped their game.

@DandyMandy
Someone literally said "what's wrong with playing video games 24/7?". Well, if you have to ask what's wrong with wasting your life then you've already got your answer.

My point was that if women are offering something and you're finding all of these men who say "no thanks" and it's as ubiquitous as these threads say it is, maybe the problem is what's on offer?
The underlying assumption is that men should want what women want them to want and if they don't, it's because something's wrong with them, rather than what women want from them. How does that make sense?

I would agree that playing games 24/7 would be a waste of life (a fairly short one, if they're not eating, drinking or sleeping) but I also think spending all of your waking hours working, cleaning and being a dancing monkey for your children is a bit of a waste too. There's a balance, but taking this thread at face-value, there seems that there seems to be a bit of a disagreement on where that balance lays between women and the men they choose to allow to impregnate then (and predominately raise, for that matter).

The cleaning thing is interesting because in working out whether you are going out with a man child then take a look at how they live.

Lives with parents. No.

Lives in flat or house which is a total mess. If you see that more than once and you have been invited around then steer clear. Someone who does not clear up while you are dating and presents a decent home? Good sign of man child.

I don’t think any woman should expect such a man to be a help with cleaning. You are, in dating them with a view to settling down, volunteering yourself. I think there was a male poster who said that earlier. I know that upset people but it is a very accurate assessment of how these men think.

[quote ShaogunArsesassin]@DandyMandy
Someone literally said "what's wrong with playing video games 24/7?". Well, if you have to ask what's wrong with wasting your life then you've already got your answer.

My point was that if women are offering something and you're finding all of these men who say "no thanks" and it's as ubiquitous as these threads say it is, maybe the problem is what's on offer?
The underlying assumption is that men should want what women want them to want and if they don't, it's because something's wrong with them, rather than what women want from them. How does that make sense?

I would agree that playing games 24/7 would be a waste of life (a fairly short one, if they're not eating, drinking or sleeping) but I also think spending all of your waking hours working, cleaning and being a dancing monkey for your children is a bit of a waste too. There's a balance, but taking this thread at face-value, there seems that there seems to be a bit of a disagreement on where that balance lays between women and the men they choose to allow to impregnate then (and predominately raise, for that matter).[/quote]
So basically you're just blaming women? Who said women were offering something to these men and the men were saying "no thanks". No woman is interested in a man living in their mothers basement. That type of man is an incel.

But they also lie and deceive. The man who looks like he has his shit together when living on this own might down tools when living with a woman.

The man who did pull his weight or at least some of it stops or reduces his contribution when kids come along.

The man who did pull his weight doesn’t change his lifestyle or working habits when children are added. You can’t know that will happen until you have children.

I was ambivalent about children, my ex was desperate to start a family. Being broody did not translate into changing his working habits or lifestyle despite me previously being the higher earner. No discussion, argument, rota or raising my expectations changed this. I was cracking under the strain of work plus kids and ended up on the Mummy track which further increased his ability to earn, work whatever hours and absolve him of domestic contribution. I pushed back in every way I could and the only losers were the children who were not taken to school clean with brushed hair at the right time with the right equipment or even dropped off safely. They were also not helped with homework or fed dinner. Or picked up on time, or at all on occasion. Preventing neglect is not a choice, it’s a necessity. Who would be able to fight for equality at home when small children are the victims? Having children changes the whole dynamic.

You can’t fight that. You end up as a single parent because it is more useful to have a man’s money than the man.

What kind of father just doesn’t help his children? A bad one. If you’ve got a man who lets the children go to school without food, brushing hair, the basics, then he’s neglectful. They do know that.

It’s a ticket to divorce. Sadly I think that by the time your children are suffering because of that you have no option. It is better just to separate and accept that your man child will go away and find another kind woman to parent him and his children: you see it all the time.

While I’m ranting.
Societal conditioning and expectations is the underlying reason why men behave like that. They don’t feel it’s their responsibility, there’s little shaming aimed at fathers who don’t turn up with clean brushed kids with the right stuff on time, who can’t or won’t cook or who go back to work full time.

There’s plenty of fawning if a bloke does anything with his own kids. Baby sitting. OMG he can coordinate their clothes so they don’t like they fell through the dressing up box, he can do girls hair - Nobel prize-worthy, oh look he’s doing the school run, what a guy. Men are more harshly judged for asking for reduced hours or flexible working. He’s hen pecked if he turns down a social event due to child care. Under the thumb if he does housework or looks after his own kids while his wife goes out for anything that isn’t necessary domestic or work stuff. Men needs their hobbies/man cave/time away from their families.

It’s crap. Male parents or carers should not be held to different standards from female ones. They should not expect to carry on with their chosen lifestyle while also expecting to benefit from their female partners earnings and domestic labour.

Women can have it all is a curse on women. For many women it means do it all at which point men become another item on the list. They choose to not be part of the load of family life and then are startled when they are made redundant and they lose the benefits of their life being facilitated. The ones who are actively involved should not be penalised at work or mocked, it’s demeaning and sexist.

We live in a world where the vast majority need two salaries to get by, not one salary for pin money or treats, just to get by. It’s well past time this was recognised.

@DandyMandy
Then what's your point?
If you're encountering many men who are in their mother's basement playing video games 24/7, it has to be because you're going looking for them (in their basements). I was just addressing your interpretation of the point that I made.

@HH160bpm
I get your point, but this is pressure placed on women by other women and by themselves. I don't know how you expect men to address it. They address it for themselves by just not caring, if these threads are to be believed.

Legally, you're equally responsible for the welfare of the children. If you care more, you're going to be over a barrel. I don't really see how you can address this when women tend to want children more than men do.