Rise of the manchildren

[TirisfalPumpkin]

Aware I might be treading on shaky ground here, given that this is a parenting forum. I'm not out and out blaming parents for this phenomenon - I know 'his mother babied him' is the usual excuse, but I'm sure there's more to it than that. I'm trying to understand it better.

It seems a non-trivial % of millennial males are entitled, lazy man-children. I have personally married two of them. They have cost me dearly (both in the 'thousands of pounds' and 'I'm now cynical and don't trust anyone' way). I have read numerous threads here and found myself nodding along to a catalogue of infuriatingly familiar behaviour, so I don't think it's just me.

I mean by 'manchildren': men that are emotionally stunted, have underdeveloped morals and values, respond in childlike ways to adult issues (lie, sulk, whine) and are subconsciously seeking a partner they can put into a motherly role who will carry the mental load of the relationship and household. They often have hobbies that they prioritise over everything else in life. My friendship circles are kind of nerd-culture oriented and it seems to be especially bad here, but I think it is a wider societal phenomenon than just among gamers and geeks.

I am wondering whether there has been some change in the way boys are raised, that makes them more like this - or are girls brought up not to be difficult and therefore challenge it less? Why do their actual parents seem to enable and encourage them when they behave badly towards their spouse? Is society in general becoming more sexist and placing fewer demands on boys and young men? Are there just as many 'womanchildren' out there? My perception is it's largely a male phenomenon but I can think of a couple of counterexamples.

Rants about awful manchild behaviour welcomed too.

Maybe the "sulking and whining" you're referring to is a rejection of the sexist instruction to 'man up

No...it's called being an entitled histrionic bitch, let's call a spade a spade.

It seems like some people are not taught the importance or methods to look after themselves and function like responsible human adults, or they just have completely backwards priorities.

Some people seem to have some sort of learned helplessness and then you just get the out and out mysogynists or lads as they like to call themselves (even more embarrassing when they're over 30).

Personally I wouldn't touch any of these pricks with a bargepole.

Mbosnz
“More studious, not smarter. Boys spend a lot of time doing sports whilst girls don't bother their arses with exercise.”

Your comment:
'Scuse me? Where the hell do you get off with such a ridiculous (and outdated) sexist stereotype?! So my girls aren't also doing ballet, gymnastics, swimming, archery, pilates, and running?

Me: Agree 100%. It is a sexist stereotype that girls are studious and boys are sporty. Absolutely. I was very athletic and was on four different sports teams at the same time growing up.

I think the stereotype is based another form of messaging that society has directed to the British working class especially:

(Disclaimer: The following in italic is my paraphrasing society’s messaging to boys/girls, it does not reflect my views on boys/girls at all).

For a working class boy, being socially mobile to reach middle class or higher, sports has been sold and marketed to them as their way up the ladder. The glorification of football stars- David Beckham for example who have gone from rags to riches. Similarly, they’ve heard that education is for girls, and so they then think it would not be masculine to be like a girl and study a lot or aspire to a degree. Their identity as a boy gets them encouraged towards sports and discouraged from academics.

But that message would not work for working class girls because there is still sex discrimination against female athletes who are grossly underpaid. (Except in sports not accessible to the working class like tennis and skiing.). So girls are sold and marketed on education. Get a good degree or qualifications. Preferably in a high paying STEM field or law and that is your way up the class ladder. You’ll make yourself a fit partner for a middle class/upper class man who expects any female partner to be at least as educated as he is. Similarly, girls hear that certain sports(namely football, rugby) are for boys and so they think it’s not for girls. Their identity as a girl gets them academic encouragement but sports discouragement towards the “boy sports”. Other feminine sports are encouraged instead but academics are prioritised over sports.

Back to my views starting here:
Boys and girls start out same levels academically and sports wise as far as they go for future career paths. It is through society nudging girls towards academics, that an equal and opposite effect occurs that nudges boys away from academics. Similarly because society nudges boys towards sports, an equal and opposite effect occurs that nudges girls away from sports.

You see this pattern all over. Society still nudges women towards motherhood, which then nudges men away from fatherhood. (By this I mean not the act of conception, but the 18+ years of actual child care work, sweat and tears). So when relationships break down, this same societal mother push leaves the woman literally picking up the pieces and raising the children on her own while the man lives like he never had children.

[quote DandyMandy]@PlanDeRaccordement I didn't victim blame anyone. No, feminism isn't for everyone. It's for the liberation of women and girls. It never has been for men. If men are so worried, then why don't they create their own movements? Oh I know why. Because any time they do it descends into woman hating and expecting women to do everything for them instead of doing it themselves.[/quote]
Well, you either victim blamed boys or have the sexist belief that girls are outperforming boys because they’re smarter so it’s not a problem. You choose.

Yes feminism is for women and for us to gain equality to men. I’m not saying it’s for men at all. I’m saying, we (society) have implemented actions to bring women up to be equal. And of course, we measure our success at this by comparing how girls/women perform versus how boys/men perform. In many areas, we are still falling short and there is more work to bring girls/women up. But, because society isn’t perfect, in a rare cases like academics we have overshot equality and girls/women are clearly at an advantage compared to boys/men. The scales have tipped the other way. There is no need for men to start a counter movement against feminism. We feminist should be self-adjusting because our stated aim is equality not superiority. And whether we fall short or overshoot we should do the work until we get to equality.

I've recently had a male colleague in his early 30s of this type working in my team.

Passive, lazy, more interested in his hobby than being a good worker or a father providing for his children.

I tried to find a way to motivate or enthuse him as an employee but never really got through to him. I don't think he could think of himself as inadequate in his job or any other way. It just wasn't the way he thought. It flummoxed me. I just couldn't work out what was going on in his brain.

He was very surprised when he was sacked. But not that bothered. His wife was the main breadwinner so I suppose he didn't need to worry financially. And there was certainly no embarrassment or shame. He all but shrugged his shoulders.

I think he's the work version of the millennial manchild described. He fits.

A few years ago I read an eassy, on how all young adults have an extended adolescence due to the fact we live longer and our foundations aren’t as solid due to the loss of the job for life, we marry, have children and buy our homes much later. Life in many ways is a lot more fun and easier. We have more free time. This ends up with both men and women with disposable incomes and no responsibility living young until their thirties. Obviously this is not everyone, of course not, but I was very immature for my age, it was not until I was 34 and had some health problems that I realised I needed to sort my self out! However I was, and am still single-i can’t rely on a second income if I fuck up because I spent all night gaming. I think a lot of these men meet women when they are both at the same stage, the women grows up and takes on responsibility, as being hungover and living in a tip is crap, while the man is able to pass over the responsibility for the home/children/relationship to the women. Then, due to the fact they have not grown at all and are effectively the same as they were as a teenager brush off any concerns of the women-as she knew what she was getting into and the women expected her partner to grow and mature. They also do not understand how hard/time consuming some things are because they don’t do them-which makes them even more childlike. Why would they change-everything is good their end, and when their partner leaves them, it’s ok there is always his parents and porn.

I hear you on the sulking. But this is not simply a millenials problem

Interesting, thoughtful posts from @PlanDeRaccordement here.

@PlanDeRaccordement

So many good points on the thread. They all show that there are multiple messages going to boys and young men that encourage manchild behaviour. We have to consider too that boys also hear the messages given to girls. I think that in fighting sexism, it may have inadvertently hurt boys. Take for example the messages

“Girls can do anything”. A boy hears that and thinks what about me? If girls can do anything that might mean I can’t do some things....add to that the worship of mothers, and a boy thinks he cannot be primary child care giver. So what happens? New fathers run for the hills until the tone is set and the child inevitably prefers the mother.

“Girl power”. Boys have no power because there is only girl power. So the boy thinks, he has to take the girls lead and have her tell him what to do, when to move in, when to propose, what chore to do. What do we get, men who are willing to chip in but useless at self direction and need lists and leading by the nose in all aspects of life.

“Girls really need to do and are brilliant at STEM” so boys think, this whole school academic thing is for girls, not me. I’d better look at a trade... And what did we get? Girls outperforming boys all through school and being the majority of university students and graduates.

In fighting sexism and the limits girls had, we put out messages to the girls not thinking that boys will hear them too and notice they are excluded. It’s like a pendulum has swung too far over.

The message to girls isn't the problem.

It's more the message to boys. Boys hear "toxic masculinity" from a young age, so are confused about what a good man is or should be. The perception of men/dads in the advertising industry is typically a loser. In TV shows the woman is usually smarter and the man takes her lead, even most police shows now.

Boys are growing up to be submissive.

My other thought is that, I don’t see men having this kind of conversation about the same problem. Maybe there is some male equivalent of MN where they discuss family breakdown and its causes but I haven’t heard of it. I will take the ‘poor menz’ analysis seriously when I see evidence that they are spending anywhere near as much mental energy on it as women - the ones being left to pick up the pieces - are.

Hmm. For me, feminism is about liberation, not equality. The standards have generally been male-centric and striving for equality on those terms may not be in our interest.

One thing I was thinking earlier is that yeah, don’t marry someone expecting them to radically change - but equally everyone changes (or IMO should) as they grow and learn and gain life experience. Maybe part of the ‘late discovered manchild’ problem is not (just) manchild hiding his true nature - it’s actually that the wife has continued to grow and change and he’s stagnated.

@DwayneBenzie

My other thought is that, I don’t see men having this kind of conversation about the same problem. Maybe there is some male equivalent of MN where they discuss family breakdown and its causes but I haven’t heard of it. I will take the ‘poor menz’ analysis seriously when I see evidence that they are spending anywhere near as much mental energy on it as women - the ones being left to pick up the pieces - are.

Do men talk to each other about anything but sports or funny videos?

Annabelle,

It's more the message to boys. Boys hear "toxic masculinity" from a young age, so are confused about what a good man is or should be. The perception of men/dads in the advertising industry is typically a loser. In TV shows the woman is usually smarter and the man takes her lead, even most police shows now.

Yes I agree the messages to boys are the bigger problem. I had posted very similar thoughts much earlier in the thread about the portrayal of men and women on TV and films the past twenty years has consistently made the man bumbling comic relief and the women super women who effortlessly do it all and clean up the messes the man makes through his incompetence.

I added the thoughts about how messages to boys also affect girls and vice versa after further thinking on this and because I do agree that men are more childlike than prior generations were. It’s not women complaining to complain, it’s a real problem and difference in men today.

@DwayneBenzie

My other thought is that, I don’t see men having this kind of conversation about the same problem. Maybe there is some male equivalent of MN where they discuss family breakdown and its causes but I haven’t heard of it. I will take the ‘poor menz’ analysis seriously when I see evidence that they are spending anywhere near as much mental energy on it as women - the ones being left to pick up the pieces - are.

Just because you don’t see/hear men talking amongst themselves doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. I know most YouTube society critics are men. There have to be forums where they talk to each other. They’re human and living in the same society, they have to have opinions too. And why do you even need evidence that men talk to each other about nontrivial subjects in order to recognise them as equal human beings?

How would you feel if a man said they won’t take any arguments for feminism seriously until they see evidence that regular women talk about more than clothes, makeup, babies and other women.

Hmm. For me, feminism is about liberation, not equality. The standards have generally been male-centric and striving for equality on those terms may not be in our interest.

Liberation from what? Which standards are male-centric?

@PlanDeRaccordement

Hmm. For me, feminism is about liberation, not equality. The standards have generally been male-centric and striving for equality on those terms may not be in our interest.

Liberation from what? Which standards are male-centric?

Aggression, both physical and verbal. Sexual dominance- women are seen in a submissive role. Economic dominance- paid more, valued at work, women are being sent back home during this pandemic

Need I go on?

@Annabelle @PlanDeRaccordement

It's more the message to boys. Boys hear "toxic masculinity" from a young age, so are confused about what a good man is or should be. The perception of men/dads in the advertising industry is typically a loser. In TV shows the woman is usually smarter and the man takes her lead, even most police shows now.

As a man, I think there's truth in this. I don't believe it's women's fault though. There's no way every one of those adverts and shows was written, produced and directed soley by women. It's a wider cultural issue.

IIRC Grayson Perry did a great TV documentary that covered some of the reasons why: modern society has (rightly) begun to the consign the old patriarchal male stereotype to History's bin. The trouble is, there's no new Male Ideal to aspire to in its place. And its fair to say that its not up to women to provide one. We men have to work on it ourselves.

Unfortunately, as someone who lived through "Lad Culture" in the Nineties I think what has happened is that instead of creating a new, more positive archetype for men instead the old habits were reconceptualised. So, men continued to behave exactly as they had done but instead of it being "I'm a Man, this is my Role" it became "I'm a Man and I just can't help myself, poor thing". Anyone watch Men Behaving Badly? The sexism became "ironic". So men's role became something a bit akin to a puppy: a bit messy, a bit useless but "charming" and "loveable". There to entertain you and be looked after.

I think men are getting toward a new role model slowly. It'll take time but I'm hopeful. All I ask is you give us a chance. So many more more men want to be part of there kids lives now co-parenting, yet I still see threads proclaiming its not healthy and they should stay predominantly with the mum (in cases where there's no obvious negligence or abuse). Or we get comments like the above, where we're told we only talk about sports or funny videos. I know it was meant in jest, but seriously no, some of us don't. And every time I read something like that a little bit of that hope is crushed. It makes you think "well, okay then, what's the point? Maybe I should just be a manchild then. That's what everyone expects of me after all."

Please don't give up on all of us just yet.

I think building a family has never been a personal priority for men. There was social pressure towards doing it and men like sex and a female companion.
The pressure to marry is almost non-existent now. Porn and videogames are a lot of fun. I think it means a lot of men effectively check out of society.
I think a lot of what we consider maturity is a direct result of having children. You have to have the knowledge to guide them and be responsible enough to get the resources to keep them in a good standard of living.
If you've got no kids to look after and you have enough money to meet your obligations, what's the real issue with playing videogames all day?

I find it strange that people are so convinced that the ‘manchild’ is a modern phenomenon. My stepdad was born in the 1960’s and once cooked his kids baked beans on toast in 1995 when my mum was in hospital. He sulked and withdrew if anyone in the family caused him any inconvenience. He raged on the few occasions he was asked to do anything. He wouldn’t facilitate my mum returning to work or study by taking any responsibility for the house or childcare but hated her for not working. These men are everywhere. I think they fundamentally hate women and can only tolerate them when they are going above and beyond to service their needs. These men have sons who mirror their entitled attitude and daughters who absorb it at least on a subconscious level.

Anyone watch Men Behaving Badly? The sexism became "ironic". So men's role became something a bit akin to a puppy: a bit messy, a bit useless but "charming" and "loveable". There to entertain you and be looked after.

Men Behaving Badly does symbolise it. Two lager louts, intellectual pygmies, maladjusted and only interested in sex and beer. Their poor other halves were smart and treated them like the poor saps that they were while suffering for their pathetic behaviour. This was 25-30 years ago now but these were almost the original man children.

I thought that this was going away somewhat. Until my husband’s daughter came back from uni saying that the boys were useless. Couldn’t wash up, clean etc so the girls did it all. She found it funny that they were so useless and felt a kind of pride in being more competent than them and being able to look after them. I was dismayed.

My next door neighbour has grown up kids all living at home. Ages 22-27. She gets up half an hour early to make the boys lunch for work! Despite the fact that she also works. Also does all their laundry and cleans up after them if they make dinner.

Also, women have fought for equality in work place. But you don’t hear of many men giving interviews saying they wish they were treated more fairly at home and given more laundry duty. Coz it’s fucking boring as shit doing housework. So the manchild now doesn’t have to have financial responsibilities and also doesn’t want to do housework.

I used to hear about toxic masculinity and think ffs have you tried being a girl/woman lately? Toxic femininity is ruling our lives. You have it so easy in comparison.

But now I'm slowly seeing it from a different angle. The brilliant Robert Webb has given gender roles a lot of thought and he's reached the conclusion that there is no un-toxic/healthy version of masculinity.

But I wonder... that just doesn't sit right. I think there's got to be, and it's somehow linked to protecting/providing those of us who are smaller and create life... I'm still unclear. Anyway I hope men figure it out soon because I for one am a knackered single mum doing everything and practically celibate due to fear of being taken advantage of yet again by the current version of masculinity.

I’d forgotten about Men Behavinf Badly. That pretty much describes what I was saying about my husband’s daughters situation at uni. Also, I heard Grayson Perry say that all the Bear Grylls masculinity is stupid for today’s society. Really, it should be ‘can I find an amazing affordable house with good state primary school nearby’. Something like that anyway.

I also like Robert Webb. His book How Not To Be a Boy was good. But that’s more about masculinity. Not sure where the manchild comes from.

I don’t think men have adjusted to the reality of competing with women educationally and professionally over the last few decades. They are still operating under the previous model where turning up with a Y chromosome automatically gave them preferential treatment. Combine that with the men who achieved success under that model being the ones held up as role models and it’s an impossible standard.

What’s missing is the acknowledgment that older men at the top right now had a loaded deck. It was not only hard work and aptitude. Young men will not automatically rise up the ranks and receive a woman to have their children and facilitate their lives. Their predecessors did. No one is giving boys and men the harsh messages that girls and women are given like you’ll have to fight for a place at the table, do it on your own.

Maybe that’s why this extended adolescence is so prevalent, young men are unwittingly waiting for success to be handed to them. When it doesn’t happen they get depressed, angry or both. The difficulty in changing this stems from the lack of acknowledgment of the loaded deck for their predecessors. It’s akin to not recognising white privilege as a factor in success. No one wants to say I benefited from something at the expense of others but without recognising the root of it systemic change can’t happen. Women and girls are achieving because the sexism that got and gets in their way is known, recognised and attempts to mitigate it are made. It’s not equality (yet) but progress has been made. Meanwhile on the male side of the fence nothing has been recognised and no changes have been made.

It's not new. My exh was one but I didn't know it at the time as there was no Mumsnet and the internet was in it's infancy. We divorced in 2003 and at 51 I suspect he is still the same with a new partner.

His mother didn't baby him much but his grandmothers did. However his father was useless, prioritised his hobbies (and other women over his wife) and the family lived with his parents so his father never needed to grow up.