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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

If you're ok with porn....can you please not be

245 replies

yesterdaystotalsteps123 · 21/05/2020 08:55

So many people reply to messages on here about porn with"I'm ok with porn" can you please look at Rose Kalemba's fight to get her rape and torture removed from PornHub. This is what modern porn is. Stop being ok with it. And it's been going on for years because Traci Lords was underage back in the 70s/80s. Someone's right to masturbate shouldn't come before human trafficking and some people on here are part of the problem with their"porn is ok" stance. It's time to realise that unfortunately it's really not ok

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Vretz · 24/05/2020 23:46

So if Instagram has pornographic content, should it be banned? MN has a sex section of it's thread, should it be banned if too vulgar words are used? Most would say no?

You are missing my point which is censorship, once the horse is out the stable door on a government being able to censor specific websites, then demoracy is threatened. If you wish this kind of approach, I'd move to China.

LexMitior · 24/05/2020 23:59

The gov can do that already, quite lawfully.

TomPinch · 25/05/2020 00:17

Vretz, I don't see that has anything to do with what I wrote. Perhaps you could explain.

My apologies if you were replying to sometime else.

KnockDownNinjas · 25/05/2020 03:02

@TomPinch
The point of PornHub is that it's an avenue for people to upload their own erotic content for fun or for profit.

Let's say it was viable for them to independently verify the identity of everyone who appears in a video. Anyone who didn't want to go through that process would be able to upload the file literally anywhere else on the internet.

You're asking for a burden to be put on tech companies which would ultimately lead to a censured internet, which I assure you would get a significant backlash. Especially when it's driven by this Schroedinger's rapist thinking (unless you can independently verify that an individual in a video is not being abused, there is a significant chance that they are being abused).

As it stands, I've never seen anything obviously illegal on the site, but by all accounts if I did and I reported it, it would be good in good time.

californian6 · 25/05/2020 03:40

I believe like most things it's about being a ethical consumer. People need to understand that pornhub does not equal the porn industry at large and is a huge industry. If your issues lie with pornhub that's fine but there are plenty of emerging studios and businesses that still deserve to exist.

PrimalLass · 25/05/2020 11:35

So if Instagram has pornographic content, should it be banned?

Instagram should not have pornographic content as the lower age limit is 13.

Vretz · 25/05/2020 11:49

fightthenewdrug.org/if-instagram-strict-no-nudity-policy-but-still-porn/

@KnockDownNinjas summarises my point. I don't disagree with the intent to protect individuals from developing a warped mentality to sex from porn, nor do I disagree with protecting performers. It's education of what porn is.

Tom - partly touched on your point indirectly, but thanks for flagging. I think your intent is spot on with making it harder to find, but I think the backlash will drive porn more into the hands of traffickers and criminals. My view is to treat porn more like alcohol, where parents need to have those discussions with their own children openly, but it has a price obstacle.

TomPinch · 25/05/2020 23:38

@KnockDownNinjas

The fallacy in your argument is that sites like Pornhub should be entitled to operate as they do, ie, and if there is no practical way of vetting videos before publication, they shouldn't have to.

I think an alternative view is that what they and other similar sites are doing is completely irresponsible. There seems to be the idea that restrictions on self-publication (whether pornographic or not) is unacceptably restrictive in a free society. But this is nonsense. Surely you must realise that until really very recently (until the Internet basically) if you wanted to publish something you went through a publisher, and they took legal responsiblity for what they published. This included the dirty-mac, pencil-moustache, Soho-dwelling publishers the porn mags of old. Society was no less free because of that.

As it happens, I don't have a particularly big deal with that, otherwise I would be a hypocrite for using Mumsnet. However, I do think that certain categories of material ought to be exceptions, and I think porn should be one. Given how intrusive it is, and given the avalanche of videos and images circulated without the subjects' consent, I think this argument is unanswerable.

Just to make my view really clear, I think that banning all porn is unhealthy, as it is a suppression of sexual expression, and the societies that have managed it were ones that were censorious generally (I gave the example of Ireland - Diarmaid Ferriter write an interesting book on this). To my knowledge, the UK never managed it. By "porn" I include, for example, Playboy and I mention this because when porn is discussed I often wonder if such things aren't counted any more as they are so comparatively mild now.

So, my view would be that if Pornhub really was simply used by people as an avenue for their own erotic content, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. However, as a matter of fact it clearly isn't - and I do doubt whether there are many women at all who genuinely don't mind publicising videos of themselves having sex in painful ways.

And if Pornhub and similar sites were closed or blocked, what then? Yes, other sites would come into being, but they could be dealt with. I think that prosecuting people who ran or accessed such sites would probably result in an awful lot of people discovering that actually they don't need to watch extreme porn to get their rocks off. It would result in a huge number of people not being revictimised by having themselves splayed across such sites too. In other words, a win-win. The reality is that, with the exception of a very small number of things, society successfully deals with problematic social issues by criminalising and restricting supply.

TomPinch · 25/05/2020 23:47

@Vretz

Thanks. I do actually agree that it would drive porn into the hands of crims, to an extent. But I don't think that's a bad thing if it reduces the amount of abusive porn overall, and if it makes, for example, revenge porn harder to access.

People often compare the situation to banning drugs, and my response to that would be simply look what opium did to China.

Somewhere out there is a happy medium, in which people who want to make or view porn can do so legally and without judgment, but certain extreme forms that are shown generally to cause harm (to the actors and the viewers) are clearly off-limits.

This is really no different to a host of other things in society: the extreme ends of them are restricted or banned, and they aren't simply a matter of individuals' free choice. Society is no less free for this fact. I think the anarchic nature of the Internet for most of its history makes people forget this.

LexMitior · 26/05/2020 00:18

@TomPinch what a great post. You really know your stuff.

I think a lot of people forget that porn was once tightly controlled in the UK and that was lawful. It has been interesting seeing how the criminal law has dealt with sexual imagery on the internet with new crimes like revenge porn and upskirting being put into statute. There are other changes that can be made to protect women from exploitation and fix liability in distributors and consumers.

Anyway, good to have your perspective.

Vretz · 26/05/2020 00:33

@TomPinch great posts. I disagree with you, but I appreciate you have very respectfully made your point and I can't argue with your logic.

I think we disagree more around world view and philosophy, so I'm not one to give up my values and I wouldn't expect you to either! I think we're therefore at a suitable point where I'd shake your hand (post COVID!) and buy you a drink, and somewhere in the middle there's a happy medium as you say. I just still think education is the answer... GrinWink

TomPinch · 26/05/2020 05:01

@LexMitior
@Vretz

Thanks- very kind of you both. Would love to accept that drink in other circumstances (and stand my round too) Smile

Hannahmates · 26/05/2020 10:57

I'm OK with some porn. I don't watch violent porn. Most of my porn is softcore and lesbian porn. However, I've started getting into erotica fiction and art and watch less actual porn now. In fiction and art you know nobody is getting hurt.

Rosebel · 31/05/2020 09:18

Traci Lords, was underage but she lied and got a fake passport. So she wasn't exactly forced in to anything. She became pretty famous, out of the whole thing.
This porn industry is more, regulated than you think.

yesterdaystotalsteps123 · 31/05/2020 10:58

@Rosebel children can't give consent. Please don't try and justify the use of minors. Children are exactly forced into porn. Children are groomed the world over, many survivors say they thought they were giving consent at the time, sometimes it's years later they realised they were abused and exploited

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Hopoindown31 · 31/05/2020 11:54

The problem with on the internet is it is a very wide and ranges from female friendly porn made in controlled environments with consenting adults with non-degrading activities all the way to people posting sexual assault and rape of minors. Therefore the statement "I'm okay with porn" has no meaning as it depends what porn you are talking about. I am okay with high quality well made non-degrading porn between consenting adults. I am not okay with a lot of the degrading and downright illegal shit that gets posted.

Sadly a lot of this crap has really impacted what is seen as acceptable to many men in sexual relationships. We've only just recently had a thread by a woman whose boyfriend's only idea of oral sex involved making her gag.

Coffeeandbeans · 31/05/2020 12:18

@Hopoindown31

The problem with on the internet is it is a very wide and ranges from female friendly porn made in controlled environments with consenting adults with non-degrading activities all the way to people posting sexual assault and rape of minors. Therefore the statement "I'm okay with porn" has no meaning as it depends what porn you are talking about. I am okay with high quality well made non-degrading porn between consenting adults. I am not okay with a lot of the degrading and downright illegal shit that gets posted.

Sadly a lot of this crap has really impacted what is seen as acceptable to many men in sexual relationships. We've only just recently had a thread by a woman whose boyfriend's only idea of oral sex involved making her gag.

Exactly this. I have no issue with safe porn between consenting adults. I have an issue with rape, teenage sex etc etx
Rosebel · 31/05/2020 14:00

You don't know her motives,for lying. You don't know she was abused or exploited and I don't think she has,ever claimed that. If course it's not right using a,minor but it was a choice she made. She decided to lie and get a fake passport, in any industry there,is,only so much checking they can do. Back in the 70s it wasn't like it is now, you couldn't easily check things. Knowingly using a minor is,incredibly wrong but she wove a,web of lies,to get what she wanted. Doesn't make it right but in most jobs if you show,them your passport they accept as ID.
I know you don't believe anyone enjoys being in porn but why are you so convinced it's all forced? Why do you believe just women are exploited? You also seen to think it's all violent but the majority isn't. Rape is always wrong but that isn't what porn is about.
You are convinced all porn is wrong because of one story but you can't judge a whole industry on a couple of people who abuse it.

Dieu · 31/05/2020 23:57

I'm with you, OP. It amazes me that so many women on here are ok with porn. But would end a relationship over a lap dance, or whatever. Pure hypocrisy.

Helmlover1 · 01/06/2020 08:35

@Dieu I’m ok with porn and I wouldn’t end a relationship over a lap dance. Your bizarre assumption is based on what, exactly?

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