But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

" I have always assumed that the family solicitor would inform them if I made any direct enquiries"

Now why would that happen?. I would not assume anything here but work on fact rather than supposition. I would also consider appointing your own solicitor to seek legal advice re this particular will and whether any supposed clause actually stands up. I also think you've been done over like a kipper on the money front as well; toxic people often use money and wills as ways of holding further power and control over their chosen victims.

Agree with Attilla stay well away from the family solicitor, they work for the family, you need someone to work for YOU.
The fact that your mind goes straight to the family solicitor speaks I feel to the extent that they have trained you to never think outside of the family bubble!
I totally get how hard it is to walk away from the money (or compensation as I prefer to see it) however they're using it it as carrot and as stick and they're making you into the donkey

Attila I’ve reported my last post on the last thread and asked them to replace it with a link to this one instead.

Blimey sometimes that info about the will is crackers, it’s possible to put lots of things in wills but they have to be legal, or they can be contested. I would gather as much information as you have and see your own solicitor. I think you’ve been sold a red herring by your AM, unless you see a copy of your GM’s will I’d take it with a massive pinch of salt.

If I renounce the family
What does that mean though, how could a clause like that stand up?
What constitutes 'renouncing the family', do you have to write a signed witnessed letter stating that you rennounce them?
Are you considered to have renounced them if you do not contact them a certain number of times per week/ month /year?
I think they're bullshiting you, you need to find out the truth.
Knowledge is power.

How do you overcome any guilt about the way you think about your mother/parents?

I know that my parents are responsible for the poor mental health that I've had for the last 40 years. My dad had affairs and when I was 13 they had a very messy, protracted divorce that took years to resolve. I went overnight from being a quite innocent young teenager to being my mothers confidant & mental health "carer". All through my teenage years I believed if I wasn't good, didn't do as she wanted, did anything to cause even the smallest problem then I'd be responsible for her having a breakdown. The mantra I received from relatives and even the police (who were sometimes involved in their game playing) was "take care of your mum", "you need to look after your mum", "you need to be strong for your mum".

I think that is the role that I have had ever since. I find it very difficult to discuss my problems with real life people, never rock the boat, put my needs last. I don't think I have ever done anything to make my mother happy or proud of me, no matter how hard I've tried. I've sought her approval for everything I do and if she doesn't approve then I don't do - that's led to me not pursuing career opportunities/hobbies etc. I learnt a long time ago that if I do something that she doesn't approve of then there will be weeks of "I can't sleep worrying about .....because you've chosen to do......". I don't really tell her anything about my life because the result is the guilt trip. Everything seems to turn into something that makes her feel ill (I realised a couple of years ago that she uses illness as a control - if I don't call her for a week then she will tell me about how ill she's been feeling for the last few days or how she's been"feeling as weak as a kitten". I had cancer last year, and her response was "I won't feel well until I know you're well". So obviously I never tell her when I'm feeling in pain or worried because I don't want to upset her, even though I need a hug & some reassurance I pretend my life is golden, not to upset her, when actually it's anything but.

I feel very angry about it. I know she looked after us - we had nice clothes, a clean home, went on holidays, good food. My dad was hateful towards her - but at the same time I feel let down, controlled - still controlled now. I've lived my life never being emotionally intimate with anyone, doing things to please others not myself. I know we are responsible for our own lives but it's not really that easy, or maybe it is and I just can't face up to the crap life I've made for myself through my own mistakes.

But worse than that anger is the guilt that I feel even thinking these things. It must have been horrendous for her when she found out about my dad, I'm sure she did feel like she was going to fall apart. I don't know how to sort all this out in my head.

Hi RiveterRosie!
I'm sure she did feel like she was going to fall apart
That doesnt make it right to fall on you though, to fall on her 13 year old daughter.
Guilt is very hard to wrestle with, that's why they program you to feel guilty, they intend for you to never escape and never have the chance to look objectively at the situation.
Your selfish childlike mother has done a number on you, in my book that makes it OK for you to distance yourself as much as you need to in order to preserve and rebuild your mental health.
You deserve the time and space to recover from the damage done to you.

Thank you all for your replies.

@Ulterego .. Your use of the word compensation really struck a chord with me, I hadn't thought about it so blatantly before, but I realise now that I have held onto the thought of it kind of in that way, as if somehow I will get my reward if I can just stick this out. I really am just a stupid donkey though.

@AttilaTheMeerkat .. I do agree I will need my own solicitor, but won't he/she still need to contact the family solicitor's firm since the wills are all lodged with them? I have never been shown an actual copy of the will or trust, so I don't know any details other than what has been told to me, but I will definitely speak to someone about this and find out more before I actually instruct anyone to make an official enquiry.

But, these outside perspectives, and just being able to express some of my feelings, are really helping me feel less isolated and impotent. So thank you very much for that. Also, the point made about knowledge being power really struck home. I think I have some digging to do somehow.

I briefly (and very casually) mentioned the trust money to my husband today, and asked him how much it would mean to us, and what the implications would be if I walked away from it. Bless him, he said he would live under a bridge with me if it came to it, but that if we did walk away from it (through my choice) then he would support me. We had never discussed it before. It was brought up in our early days by my AM when he first met them, before we were married. She accused him of only wanting me for what I would eventually get. I hadn't ever mentioned it, so as he put it later "I'm marrying an heiress, who would have thought it!" But I know he was joking, and he did just really want me.

On a lighter note I have felt stronger, maybe even a bit more defiant in the past 24 hours since posting here. So much so that when I was batch cooking for them today I made an extra hot,very spicy, curry (which I know my stepfather (SF) will love and wolf down) and which my AM will absolutely hate! Perhaps I can throw a few subtle stones into their pool and see what happens It will be quite amusing if the next phone call I get from my SF is all about how my AM has given him grief about him eating like a pig while she has to go hungry.

you are not a donkey!! but they are trying to treat you like one, and I meant compensation for what you have endured, rather than a reward bestowed by them for good behaviour.
I'm not trying to encourage you to walk away, this money was left in trust for you by your grandmother, it's yours!
Find out exactly what the legal position is then you'll know exactly what your bargaining power is.
As things stand they are acting as if they have you over a barrel, but you dont have to take their word for it, do they even have a barrel??

@RiveterRosie hello, Im really glad you’ve posted. Your mother fits the description of an ‘engulfing narcissist’ and it’s no surprise that you can’t break free, you’re not meant to, she just won’t let you if you play it her way.

Please go and read as much as you can, arrange some talking therapy if possible to develop your self-worth and get your freedom. It’s not too late, we’re here for you. I’m so incredibly angry on your behalf.

@RiveterRosie ... I wanted to reply because I can see from your post just how much your mother has caused your struggles and I wanted you to know how sorry I am that even through your cancer, which must have been really terrifying for you, you didn't get the support or help you deserved. I wouldn't dare offer any advice because I struggle too, with the guilt, and anger and sheer unfairness of it all. But, what I would say is just the fact that you have posted, reaching out for some advice, support, help, empathy makes me think you are at the point where you are really ready to take the first steps towards recovering from all the emotional trauma and abuse. Perhaps, like me, you aren't sure what those steps should be, but the important thing is we are trying to find them. I really hope you get as much from this thread as I already have. Just sharing on here how you really feel can be an incredible feeling of release and relief, and can help you find the courage to continue to find the right path for you to break free. I sincerely wish you all the strength you need and hope life gets better for you.

Hi everyone - may I join?

I have been writing in the past about my abusive parents and I believe @AttilaTheMeerkat had recommended me back then to join this topic.

I need to vent a bit..... Summary: have a difficult relationship from childhood onwards with both parents. Esspecially struggling in the last years with the relationship with DM who is definitly an enabler with clearly some narcistic traits herself.

I met DH 2 years ago, we met online and decided soon after meeting each other that we wanted to get married. We had both had a very strong sense that we were meant for each other and if I wanted to be with him, the only way to live together was to obtain a spousal visa so I could move to his country. We told my DP about 1 month before we were getting married about our plans, we would just go together to the city hall in his city to get married, just a formality for the two of us without any guests. We asked to keep it quiet because we were planning on organizing a real wedding later on and we wanted to announce later on that this was our plan after we had obtained the spousal visa. My DM has a tendency to spread around personal stuff about me to family members that Is don't know that well and since even at work nobody knew what my plan was I wanted to keep things quiet until it was all settled. DM was upset about it but had no choice then to respect this. I went to DH's country more then a month later and discovered when I was at home that I had unexpectedly had become pregnant. I know our DS was conceived about a week after our wedding.

Yesterday I had a conversation with DM on Face Time and I am still fucking livid about what she said. She said : 'If you had not gotten pregnant then you wouldn't have married him.'

She knew damn well my due date -she knew it was 9 months after our wedding and not 8 months. I got really upset about what she said and when I told her what she said was completely untrue. She then got a certain look on her face - the look of someone who had been caught telling lies.
I am very sure that because she did not feel comfortable that I had gotten married without notification to everyone of her family, she has made it up that I got married because I had to, because I was pregnant (DH is from a very traditional culture). I am so angry that she is making my decision to marry DH like a forced one, all because she didn't want to admit her daughter choose not to have a big wedding immediately. And from her stupid comment from yesterday (she isn't really the sharpest knife in the box) I understand that she had even started to believe her own lie.
I have decided now to massively reduce contact again and to give her a warning that if I ever hear her tell this bullshit lie again, esspecially in the presence of DH and / or DS, I am going NC completely.

Sorry for the long post, have been upset about it for hours and really needed to get it off my chest.

Thank you to the posters who replied to my post about my mother.

I googled "engulfing mothers" and it was a revelation to me. To find out that it is recognised by psychologists that there are psychosomatic mothers who control by illness, was jaw dropping. I've thought about my mum in those terms before but dismissed my thoughts as me being mean and ungrateful; one of my very earliest memories is of being scared that my mum was going to die because she was talking about being ill.

It sounds daft but I describe myself as being smothered. "Smothered in love" sounds like something most people would give their eye teeth for, but it's kind of like being trapped in a spider's web. How can I feel so angry at someone who loves me so much? How can I be so ungrateful when I'm told so often that she loves me so much, doesn't know what she'd do if I wasn't there, spent her life trying to do her very best to give me everything she could? I hate myself for being so mean. Yesterday I hated myself so much I stabbed myself in the arm with the potato peeler.

Honeybee I think you’ve done exactly the right thing, good for you.

It’s such a ridiculous trait the lying and spinning of yarns, sadly lots of people go along with these myths to keep the peace. The narcissists’ wish to be at the centre of everything and create drama does so much damage.

I’m imagining a few people who have heard what she’s said about you and wondered why anyone would care about being pregnant before marriage, or would say things to cast some sort of prehistoric idea of shame on their daughter.

Hold her at arms length I think?

And many many congratulations on your marriage, baby and new life, I hope it’s incredibly happy. 💐

Hi Honeybee sorry to hear you're having such a terrible time with her and congratulations on your pregnancy.
I concur, in her mind you are obligated to defer to her and do things her way, because you didn't she is punishing you by trying to slur you/stain your reputation.
She likes to be in control and she wanted to be in control of the news about your pregnancy.
Sounds like you've got her number and you're positioned to take back control?

@RiveterRosie please do not hurt yourself anymore, please take some deep breaths. Have you done this before?

Keep posting here, put your feelings somewhere but don’t turn them on yourself. None of this is your fault or responsibility. You are not alone.

@Fanthorpe thank you very much

I think she made this up because she feels uncomfortable at the idea that I didn't throw a big wedding party and invited all of her family members. She was also upset that I didn't allow her to tell 1 particular member because this person had helped me move into my appartment of that time a few years before. I was 'ungrateful' for their help because I didn't feel like sharing something with them that I considered still as private information at that moment. It really made me so angry that I had to defend myself towards her on MY decision to keep MY private life event to myself.

Ironically she also expected me to throw a goodbye party before the emigration for her family members and couldn't accept it when I said I don't know if I have still time to do that, but she couldn't help me move out furniture because she had no time and let me carry heavy stuff by myself when I was nearly 30 weeks pregnant.

You're completely right, with a narcicist it's always about them!

Rosie you’re feeling really overwhelmed I think, take it slowly, just concentrate on yourself.

Feeling smothered isn’t a good feeling, love is better when it’s respectful and kind. You’ve done your best for your mother, I think. You don’t have to do anything right now, focus on yourself, think about what you want to fill your time with. The Out of The Fog website is really useful.

@Ulterego

Thank you. DS was born last year but yesterday she made that comment. So she has probably told that lie to so many people for such a long time now that she has started to believe in it herself. Hence why the stupid cow started even telling me this yesterday and quickly realized again that it was a lie after I told her it's utterly bollocks. After all I know best .

And yes you're right, she feels she has the right to share my private info with whoever she feels like sharing it with.

One thing is for sure : she will be the last to know about any news I share from now on.
We were NC for the last part of my pregnancy but I called her after DS was born. After hearing yesterday how she's very likely been spreading this lie about me, I regret that now. She didn't deserve to hear the news first.

Honey did you ever wonder why she didn’t organise a party for you herself?

It’s more about an opportunity to engender feelings of obligation and guilt than a genuine desire to celebrate.

@Fanthorpe

I'm afraid you're 100% right about this one...I actually didn't think about it but your comment got me thinking.

I imagine a loving mother would have organized a baby shower and would have made sure that I got extra help to make up the time I would lose with that (if I had a daughter it's what I would have done among other nice things she didn't do).

You're right, this is a powergame and the purpose is clear : to remind me again how bad/selfish/ungrateful etc I am!

When my friend helped me move the heavy furniture and I told her about my DM's nagging to throw a party for her family, my friend said: Well if family is so important then why isn't there anyone you are supposed to throw a party for, here to help now?

She was spot on too.

Apologies Honey🤦🏼‍♀️
I've not quite had enough caffeine yet today and didn't properly take in the details of your post🤦🏼‍♀️
don't tell her anything (or maybe to amuse yourself give her misinformation and see what she does with it 🤭)

Rosie, the spider does not love the fly trapped in it's web, the spider wants to consume The fly, the spider drains the life force out of the fly in order to sustain itself.
the reason you see yourself as trapped in the web of the spider is because that metaphor encapsulates the dynamics of the situation you are in.
it is not love, it is a desire to completely possess and consume in order to sustain herself.
You are food for her, fodder

If you truly love someone you will want them to spread their wings and fly

It was a big birthday for my NC DM this year and I had a real sense of sorrow that there would be no family party. Then it dawned on me that we’d never actually had anything like that, I don’t know why I’d never noticed. I just thought we weren’t that sort of family.

SometimesIwish If you want to check the will you don't need a solicitor - just £1.50. Use - www.gov.uk/search-will-probate
to find the probate and will. It should show the trust being set up for you but very unlikely to have any information on the trust details.