But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Ulterego I know what you mean about flying monkeys, I have flocks of them from the local Priest to my local corner shop owner who regularly gets quizzed about whether I have been in or not (so they are checking up on me when I tell them I am away with my husband). Hope your flying monkeys are not so rabid!

@SometimesIwish you sound so trapped and alone. There are definitely things you can think about changing, even if it’s just little things. Have you ever had any talking therapy? What does your husband think of how things are?

Living in fear is really exhaustingly hard, you might find you can think about yourself a bit more with a bit of help?

@Fanthorpe : Thank you for your kind post.

I guess I am trapped in terms of the role I play within the family, but in daily life I am not alone. I have a lovely husband who treats me well, and whilst I have not explained to him why I have certain "foibles" (I did not want him to see me as 'damaged goods'), I was upfront with him from the outset of our relationship that I have some very firm red lines in terms of language, behaviour and physical contact which he has, for the great majority of the time, respected completely. I also have some wonderful friends who again, whilst they do not know my history, they accept at face value, and will draw me out of myself (aka give me a good talking to) when I withdraw from the world too much.

I haven't had any therapy of any kind, and I'm not sure I could do it. To be honest the thought of trying to explain what happened to me in any detail to anyone terrifies me. I do use generic relaxation/hypnotherapy tapes which help me when I am particularly overwhelmed and emotional.

My husband does think I do too much, certainly in comparison to my other family members, but has heard for himself how this is expected of me (particularly by my step father) as the eldest child, and supports me even though he wishes I could do less. He doesn't like my family very much, but would never rock the boat as he wouldn't wish to cause problems for me with them.

Although, having thought more as I have been typing this reply, I probably am alone in the one way that counts most for me as I have never been able to be 100% myself with anyone as I have too much to hide. The older I get the more I realise how important it is to have at least 1 person in the world who 'knows the trust of us' ... and I guess that is why I have ended up posting in a forum of strangers.

Sorry, some awful typos ... my friends accept me at face value ..... and further down I meant to say 'knows the truth of us. Sorry!

The thought of trying to explain
Sometimes, I wonder if EMDR might work for you? I've had a few sessions of it and found it quite useful, you don't have to tell the therapist any details and if you find a therapist who is experienced in working in this area they will understand if you don't want to have to explain things.
The controlling and the monitoring is a technique which works to make you feel as if you are a piece of equipment which belongs to them, not suggesting this is their conscious reasoning it's largely instinctive for these types imo

@Ulterego: Thanks for your suggestion. I've never known anyone who has had EMDR before, but am so glad it helped you. If I wanted to contact a therapist about EMDR, what do you think I could say to them to explain why I need/want it? Can I be really vague and just say childhood issues and no more than that? Or will they want more information?

Hello everyone, just wanted to share a very helpful blog posted by an OP on another current thread.

Not sure if its the done thing to mention names so apologies for missing specific credit.

Well worth a read even if you are not of the religious persuasion, its helping to switch on a fair few lightbulbs re abuse current and historic for me.

www.confusiontoclaritynow.com/blog/why-was-i-abused-part-two-targeted-and-exploited-by-an-abuser

Sometimes a couple of things are striking me about your posts. You are holding strong boundaries with people that you trust (husband and friends) and are fearful that they might see the ‘real’ you if you were to relax. Yet the family members who continue to cause you such pain are not subject to boundaries at all, they maintain such a strong part of your life that you entertain thoughts of their death as a solution (very common feeling here, please don’t worry about expressing it). Do you see that this is the wrong way round?

If you are considering therapy what would you be hoping to achieve? It’s very hard to make progress if you lack a goal. Of course you don’t have to tell a therapist specifics of what happened in your childhood. However the main component of therapy is the relationship between you and the person you see, it’s an opportunity to be yourself, to be held in an entirely safe and positive way. You can use your sessions to explore how you want to relate to others. You can also learn how fear and shame cast very long shadows throughout our lives.

You said at the beginning that your user name represented a shameful thing, I disagree, I think it’s a cry for freedom, the end of something that is not your fault or responsibility.

@Fanthorpe: Thank you for your thoughtful post. I think I do show the real me to my friends and husband, but what I do not let them see is the damaged part of me. I guess I became accustomed at a very early age to not showing my pain or distress as if I did so I was accused of being moody or difficult, and of being selfish because I ruined things for everyone else by not being jolly or doing my part. I also do believe nobody likes a 'fun sucker' (have to thank my friends daughter for that phrase) and so I have also become used to withdrawing when I struggle emotionally so that nobody has to suffer my black moods. The times I can withdraw (usually when my husband is away and I have no visits to the family scheduled) are the only time I can be 100% me, warts and all.

The family, driven by my step father and adoptive mother, have always taken the view that "if you are in this family you abide by our rules". The inference (clearly stated) being that if you don't you are out and cut out of the wills. So I guess my overriding concern about even attempting to put in place any boundaries with the family is that by doing so, and therefore appearing to act 'out of character', is that I would have to explain why I was doing it, and why I was going against their rules.

As to therapy and what I would like to achieve I think, if I am ruthlessly honest with myself, I would like to feel less dirty and ugly. Does that make sense? I am used to the anger and pain, and I guess I have become pretty good at holding them in check, but I do struggle with finding anything about myself which is beautiful or worthy of taking pride in. I do take on board what you say about the relationship between therapist and client as being an opportunity to be myself, but how can I do that if I cannot bring myself to tell the truth?

And yes, I do want freedom, and I guess now my adoptive mother is 88, I hope I won't have too long to wait.

@Sometimesiwish - for me, therapy was THE most important revaluation for me.

The therapist had no relationship with me, and so I didn't have to pretend in order to keep the friendship etc.

They were paid to listen and talk through concerns. And had the qualifications to guide me through my feelings, rather than just agreeing with me.

It has been hard, and very random small things cane to the surface which had obviously caused me a lot of pain over the years

You don't have to go deep into your past, and definitely not straight away. But honestly I can not recommend it enough in getting you to see how life really is, and what you plan to do going forward

@sunnie1992: Thank you for sharing your experience of therapy, it has given me a lot to think about. Do you mind me asking what kind of therapy you had? Was it EMDR as Ulterego was suggesting? It sounds like you gained a lot from it. Do you still have therapy now, and if not how long did it take to complete, and also (sorry for the multiple questions) how long it took for you to start finding real benefits from it?

My mother has spent lockdown planning her funeral. Even down to her eulogy because she 'cannot trust' us. She needs to be in control right to the bitter end. Fair enough regarding funeral arrangements but to dictate our memories of her is just something else.

Anyone else still in touch with their parents and actually enjoyed not having to visit due to lockdown?. When I hear about people who desparetely miss their parents and just want to hug them...cannot relate. Makes me feel so guilty and sad that I don't have that relationship. I am in touch with sibs but because of all the drama and trouble my mother has caused we are not particularly close. Friendships with sibs was always discouraged. We have to communicate in secret.

Wrt therapy in my case just being acknowledged by someone who had worked in a professional capacity with survivors of abuse was very helpful.
I would have to explain why I was doing it
I understand why you feel strongly compelled to explain because you have been trained from birth to defer to these people but the objective truth is that you do not have to explain anything.
You are an independent adult they have no legal authority over you, if you put the shutters down and refuse to communicate at all there is nothing they can do.
I know it feels impossible but it could be done.
The wills
That's the only leverage that they have over you(?) my parents were very aware of this too but really probably most of their money will be used for care home fees because I sure as hell ain't gonna to lift a finger to help those s

bedroom that approach to death prep isn’t to help you all though is it? It’s to draw attention to her, and doesn’t offer you any comfort. I’ve experienced this myself, one of my DM’s favourite topics was all the inane things she would do when my DF dies - just disregarding the idea of any grief me or my siblings might feel about his loss.

I’m glad you’ve got a relationship with your siblings, I’m sorry it’s secretive, but it’s the safest way. It was one of my lightbulb moments when I realised the extent of the divisions that had been planted between us all, divide and rule!

Spent lockdown planning her funeral
Must be reading from the same script as my parent🙄
In my case a communication was received to the effect that they would probably not survive if they got the virus and here are the details of their funeral, something about I should take my time to digest all this information and then they would be in touch with further details about death funerals undertaker's wills etc
I responded 'ok cheers for the info', ofc they expected me to phone up weeping and wailing, begging forgiveness and when I didn't they have nowhere to go so part two of the strategy was never executed 😶🤭

Sometimes have you considered how your adoptive status has played a role in your feelings of low self-worth? A feeling of security in childhood is vital to making good adult relationships, it’s hard to be fully yourself if you’ve never had a reliable base. That might be a useful place to start if you do want to see a therapist?

It’s completely normal to have a feeling of fear about exposing things in therapy, most of us do everything (consciously and unconsciously) we can to avoid thinking about the pain we’ve experienced, but by facing and dealing with it we can diminish the power of it.

@Ulterego well handled!

@bedroomcushions: Gosh I so understand what you mean about your mother not giving up an inch of control. Still, look on the bright side (I always try to do this if I can), ... she has saved you hours of phone calls and planning, and if it ends up not being perfect she only has herself to blame! On the eulogy, I think it is so sad for you to have her final act being one where she is trying to force her (probably wildly inaccurate) views of herself on you and everyone else. But, you do know your own truth about her, and nobody says there can only be one eulogy and she won't be there to force anyone to read it. I think my own might try something similar. If she does I will enjoy doing some crafty editing before it gets read!

But I am really enjoying the respite lockdown has given me. I still have to do a lot as both mine are shielded and I am the geographically closest of all other family so shopping, cooking, washing, pharmacy runs etc all still need doing, but actually having a valid and extended reason to not go in their house or hear long lectures is wonderful!

Sometimes
I wonder if the theme of your childhood has to do with 'the debt that can never be repaid' because they adopted you? (this is not an area that I have any knowledge or experience of so please excuse me if I speak out of turn)
is this why it's so easy for them to press your buttons and make you feel beholden to them?
From your post I have the impression they behave as if they own you completely and it's very hard for you to see past this?

A valid and extended reason
Be sure to milk it for all it's worth, and then some.....

@Ulterego and @Fanthorpe: Thank you both for your replies.

Ulterego, yes they hold the wills over me. My adoptive grandmother and I actually did get on very well for a whole host of complicated reasons, not the least of which was that she hated my adoptive mother (her own daughter) who was her only child. I did love my grandmother dearly, even though she could not protect me, but she passed away when I was 10. Her family money was always separate to her husband's money (she came from well off stock and he was very poor) so her will left everything to me, but held in trust by my adoptive mother (AM) until she dies. My AM can draw the interest from it, but she cannot touch the capital. (This has been a source of much vitriol against me over the years.) However, I am told there is a clause which stops me getting that trust if I renounce the family - something to do with the fact I was adopted I suppose. One of the things that has often kept me going over the years is that if I ever do get that money I am going to blow it all on a super luxurious and long as possible holiday for my husband and I. I know my AM and step father would absolutely hate me doing that because they are absolute skinflints!

Fanthorpe: Yes, you make a great point about my adoptive status and how it might have affected me. If I go down the therapy route I think it would be the best way to start, thank you!

to not go in their house or hear long lectures is wonderful
This is your chance, this could be your jumping off point, they will try to draw you back in but you have seen how much better things can be if you can distance yourself from them.
Resist the efforts to put you back in that cage, dig your heels in, do not go back to the old ways of doing things.
You can re organise your life and make the space that they take up much much smaller✔️

Ouch😳
That money thing is hard, I feel like they've really done a number on you there🤦🏼‍♀️
I am told there is a clause
Yeah well they would say that wouldn't they🙄
Can you get proper legal advice and find out the truth?
(because they will tell you whatever they think will make you kow tow to them)

if you look on the out of the fog forum
www.outofthefog.net/forum/
There is (or was) a poster by the name of 'woman interrupted' (or something like that) who was adopted and speaks at great and entertaining length about the 'shenanigans' (😮) which she endured

@Ulterego: I have wondered if I can find out the actual details of the trust and the clauses, but not sure I can get to see it without tipping them off ? I have always assumed that the family solicitor would inform them if I made any direct enquiries, and that action would, I am sure, unleash a real s**tstorm of trouble, so I have held off. To be honest, if it was a small amount I would write it off, but it's not, and actually, despite me joking about blowing it all on a holiday, the truth is that it could really transform my life together with my husband, so it is hard to walk away from. I hate that that must make me sound very mercenary, sorry.