But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
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August 2013
December 2013
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Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Fl1mflam

Apparently my father wasn't my bio father YIKES that's pretty huge Frownette...are you ok?

Thank you for asking, no I wasn't ok. I phoned her sister and asked if that was true and she was really incensed and said no it wasn't. Mother was really nasty about details as well and gave me a very strange name, circumstances and situation so I can come back down to earth now with my Aunt's help.

Her sister says that is nonsense and she was trying to upset me. Aunt was a bit stronger than that...

I do appreciate you asking that, it really wobbled me, you lovely person

I feel better today thanks to your amazing support. So much insight and wisdom here. I had a lovely dinner with DP. We stuck to our guns and didn’t give in to her wheedling to come round after her appointment at the hospital this morning. DP made it clear last night, this morning, and on the way to the hospital that she wasn’t coming here. She was vile, of course. Yesterday was horrible - one of the worst days from a 10 minute phone call. She cannot bully her way in here. We have a nice home and a chilled out life (despite the Covid lockdown), and I’m not having it ruined by abuse and spite. DP needs to tell her about the changes we’re making. I can see how hard it is - his memories of the fear and obligation he had as a kid, and I feel guilt because I’m kind. But she’s not kind and doesn’t deserve it. When my amazing dad died, she didn’t offer any comfort to me. All the hurt is flooding back. He doesn’t feel guilt which is good. I may/may not get involved (I’m only considering it to support him). Not sure when we’re going to tell her. She’s here on Tuesday whilst the carpet gets fitted and then on Friday we go over to sort out the blinds and take her clothes shopping. I’ll get her into a hair appointment. Then that’s it. No more. I can see how hard it is for my mum. I want a normal family life again.

@ohbrightlight that is awful, your M will just always trump your feelings, she clearly doesn’t see you as your own person but an extension of herself. Your stress or worry isn’t yours, it’s hers, she has to worry about it, she is stressed and you couldn’t possibly be.

@Sssloou that must be very difficult, as others have said she will use this as a way to get to you, it’s a path that isn’t closed and this is very difficult in NC relationships. My DB is NC with M and DN constantly asks about her and asks my DC about her. I can see it is hurtful and difficult for DB but it is a natural curiosity and maybe when DN is older will be less inquisitive but at the moment the questions are relentless and it’s difficult for him to understand that his Cousin sees her but not him.

@MonkeyfromManchester I’m glad you are feeling a little better. I feel like all of these relationships are riding storms. There are times you can ride it out and go with the flow and other times where it is such a massive battle it doesn’t seem it will end.

This YouTube videos are very interesting, loving the Jerry Wise ones. M has started hoovering so I will be keeping my wits about me. She can clearly see I’ve been vulnerable in recent weeks so is playing at being the good grandmother. DC are lapping it up and want to visit so I’ve agreed but am going to be cautious and keep my walls up with minimal info given. I can’t take her drawing me in to kick me again so will remind myself it’s for DC and not me.

Her sister says that is nonsense and she was trying to upset me
Frownette, such a weird spiteful and messed up thing to do:(I guess it's best to not respond at all?
Or just wipe the fucking floor with her now before she's too old to take it, the lord knows I wish I had

Indeed @Frownette totally agree with @Fl1mflam sentiments. Just twisted, a wicked attempt to hurt you in the most bizarre way

Mother was really nasty about details as well and gave me a very strange name, circumstances and situation
gaslighting, an attempt to destabilise you and make you doubt your reality, wtf is she on??

Notmenottoday

re your comment:-

"M has started hoovering so I will be keeping my wits about me. She can clearly see I’ve been vulnerable in recent weeks so is playing at being the good grandmother. DC are lapping it up and want to visit so I’ve agreed but am going to be cautious and keep my walls up with minimal info given. I can’t take her drawing me in to kick me again so will remind myself it’s for DC and not me."

Narcissists love to hoover; its a ploy to get their victims back into their dysfunctional world. Do not fall for such attempts. The only response you should give is no response, drop the rope she keeps on holding out to you.

Your DC are relying on your good judgement here and its not good judgment at all to be visiting your mother!!!. She will merely use your DC as narcissistic supply, something that narcissists cannot get enough of. Your mother is a past master of, "come closer so I can hurt you again" and she will use your DC here to get back at you no two ways about it. If you were to examine this more closely you would likely find that your mother is treating your children not too dissimilarly to how you were treated by her as a child. The harm she will do them is not dissimilar to what was dished out by her to you. Look at how you've been damaged by her.

If she is too toxic/difficult/batshit etc for YOU to deal with, its the same deal for your kids too. Therefore I urge you most strongly to keep your children well away from your mother. Not all people are safe to be around and its a good time to teach your children this valuable lesson.

@AttilaTheMeerkat I recognise this hoovering now, in years gone by I would have been so grateful that she was being “kind” but now I see it for what it is. I have agreed to 1 visit, she offered to have DC at her house after school 1 day if I drop off and then I can WFH in peace.

I said I would bring DC & my laptop. I’m not leaving DC with her alone.

If we get a repeat offer, we’ll be “busy” or “I’ll check the calendar” back to the status quo. LC & short visits are manageable to me. I don’t want to get drawn in.

I know she will be able to tell I am vulnerable with what is going on with my F. It’s amazing how transparent the behaviour is when you know what to look out for. I also recognise in myself that I didn’t have the energy to get into a rebuttal when she asked me as my mind was elsewhere, a strong reminder that my wall must have slipped while I was around her and I’ve been working hard to build that up and can’t let that happen. I got a call while I was at her house about F which threw me from my usual pattern while around her.

I think that even one visit is one visit too many. How do you think this is going to go down?. She will use your children as supply and that is something that narcissistic people crave. The harm done to your children will be done in front of your very eyes and it can be as simple as a look at one of them. It would not surprise me either if she already favours one dc over the other one and it also does them no favours for them to see you as their mum being disrespected by their nan. And you’re going into that lions den?.

Cancel the visit to her and go home instead. Do not go to your mothers!.

Am sorry to read about your dad’s current state of ill health but he has let you down abjectly too from childhood. He left you people behind to be raised by your narcissistic mother and he only cares for his own self. He raised a second family and left you as children behind.

Women like your mother cannot do relationships and so the men in their lives are either discarded or are as narcissistic as they are.

@Fl1mflam it really helped that my Aunt was so angry about it actually

She said that was a sick thing to say and totally untrue. She knows how close me and my father were. She mentioned jealousy as well?

I said to my mother hang on, what was the name? Where did this happen? And she airily said it was the swinging sixties and I said that I wasn't born then so no it wasn't.

Hmmm, perhaps I do need a rethink, my head isn’t exactly on straight at the minute. There is another family situation ongoing outside of the matters with both my parents which is being stirred up. Effectively I think I am best to go hide under a rock for the foreseeable, just having a phase of feeling bombarded on the family front. Just when I thought I was “managing” things. I appreciate the advice and understanding, no one at all “gets it” friends try but they really can’t fathom half of it.

@Notmenottoday it can be completely overwheming, can't it? When you just want normal, reciprocal relationships.

Being on edge because you don't know what's going to be flung at you. Yeah it's difficult to talk to friends as you have some residual loyalty.

Sounds like you do need some space at present.

I am best to go hide under a rock for the foreseeable
it's a good time to develop an extreme germ-phobia, just refuse all human contact, I intend to!

it really helped that my Aunt was so angry about it actually
validation from someone who is a peer of the problematic parent is a powerful thing!

Hi everyone, I have posted on the SH threads before but I’ve reached a point in my life where I’m realising that I need my parents out of my life. They are vile to me and treat me like dirt.

They are both messed up people. I’m an only child. The whole situation is complicated by the fact that I have autism and I need support from other people. My parents do this thing where they give me money to help me and then shout at me how ungrateful I am if I don’t do what they want.

It’s such a long story to tell and I should imagine it’s boring, especially for those of you who go through this.

Basically, my dad has always been vile to me and my mum isn’t much better although she’s shown more care for me than he has. I have 4 children who are 18, 16, 11 and 9 months and they try to use my children against me and they make up lies. I love all my kids so much and I can’t ever imagine treating them how they treated me. Tonight my dad started getting aggressive towards me - coming up to my face and telling me that I’m trying to push my daughter (dd3) out of the house because I prefer the baby. This came about because my daughters bed is broken (The slats broke) so I asked if she could sleep in one of their spare bedrooms for one night because she has been sleeping in my bed until the new slats arrive from Amazon but my partner is staying for the weekend to spend time with us (he doesn’t live with us at the moment). I ended up in tears because I love all my daughters very much and I’m not a perfect parent but the idea of pushing my daughter out was really upsetting. I know it’s not true but how can he be so twisted?

I get my mum constantly telling me that she’d be happy, if only I wasn’t such a problem. Her own mother was a terrible parent who played her and her siblings all off against each other to the extent that they all hate each other as adults. Instead of dealing with her shit childhood, she instead talks crap about how her mother was not so bad Because she bought her colouring books. Her father was by all accounts a pedophile but he died when she was 2. My mother has now developed some health problems which she blames onto me. It’s my fault her stomach is upset.

My dad is just nasty and aggressive. He stays in bed all day and then accuses me of doing it when in reality I’m busy because I have a 9 month old. My oldest daughter has quite severe autism and she lives in a lovely residential school where she’s doing so well but it’s about 1 hour & 40 minutes from where we live. My mum uses this situation as another stick to beat me with. If I don’t speak to her or go & visit her when she tells me to, I don’t care about my daughter .

I’m sorry for my children because whilst I allow them to be a part of my life, they have to cope with their behaviour too. And they can see how dysfunctional they are. Whenever I imagine treating my children how they treated me, I realise how bonkers it is.

I’ve been taking my baby to baby signing classes because lockdown has made her wary of strangers and these are the only baby groups that can run. The lady who runs the class was taking about how important it is for children to be able to say when they want to go home so that they feel secure. I had memories of being told how selfish I was as a child if I said I wanted to go home and of my mum being angry with me when I was about 3 or 4 because I didn’t like a noisy firework display and wanted to leave (not really surprising that an autistic child would feel this way).

Sorry for this long ramble. I have had counselling before and the counsellor helped me to get the confidence to move away from them geographically. Now I’m back near them again and they are making me stressed all the time. You never know what mood they will be in. Why can’t I get away from them? I Am afraid to be alone. My dp is actually very supportive but I feel like i can’t get away from my parents.

@SugarbabyMilly ah ok, when I started reading this I was about to ask how much geographical space you had from them.

Ok so not much but you can't have anyone shouting in your face or criticising your parenting.

I hope you can take steps to detach.

@SugarbabyMilly

I'm sorry your parents are such horrible people.
From this group I have come to learn that these people don't change and they will not change.

They are so accustomed to treating you this way.

I hope you find the strength to move away from them. I hope you find the strength to go LC or NC for the sake of your children.
I have used my children as my source of strength in going LC with my toxic mother. It's only been a month, but I'm getting there a day at a time.

My mother had a toxic mother herself, and not only did she pin her own children against each other....she then had "favourite grandchildren"
It's horrible disgusting behaviour!

Yes, I agree it is horrible behaviour. Thanks for your replies. And no I don’t think they will change.

My second oldest daughter feels that she is less important than the other grandchildren.

@Frownette yes, it’s so overwhelming, you do just crave a supportive “normal” relationship but that won’t happen so feel like I constantly have to be in guard and it is exhausting is isn’t it.

It’s so hard to talk to friends as they just don’t understand or make excuses for the behaviour as they don’t really get the toxic behaviour they are displaying as they can’t understand it. Which is why I am so appreciative of this thread and those who understand.

@Fl1mflam a severe germ phobia is definitely on the way, the one positive in lockdown was not having to deal with a lot of this.

@SugarbabyMilly I am sorry to hear of your experience. It’s just mad when you think about your own children, you couldn’t possibly imagine treating them this way. I find it even harder to understand when they experienced that behaviour from their own parents, that they willingly pass this on in a “well, I had to put up with it so you will too” attitude. And then rewrite history & gaslight you into doubting it was “that bad” it’s really very twisted. I often wonder how aware these people are of these behaviours

I feel like I can't get away from my parents
Sugar
This is because whenever they are able to access you they work on you, they have trained you since you were born to obey them and whenever they are able to access you they can activate that training.
You have to focus on distancing yourself and ignoring the fear obligation and guilt that this causes.
As you spend time with no contact from them the effects of their training will gradually diminish and you will start to be impervious to them
Think of it as a kind of addiction.... like the only way for an alcoholic to recover is to remove themselves completely from any contact with alcohol.

furthermore Sugar I would suggest that the reason you keep going back for more is because part of you hopes that if you can only find the right way to explain things to them they would change and treat you with the kindness that you need and deserve.
it's very hard and it's very painful but please try and accept that they will never ever change, your only option is to completely remove yourself.

@Fl1mflam
yes you are probably right. My parents use money and practical ‘help’ to manipulate me. Everything they do gets thrown back in my face.

Hello everyone, just wanting to vent about some unwanted contact from my DB who I haven't seen for over ten years.

I am NC with my entire family. Long process that began with my borderline mother and resulted in complete isolation from my whole family due to her manipulation. Nothing new there. Highly enmeshed family and status as the scapegoat, identified patient, bad one since I was a small child. Extensive therapy has made me realise that I am the only rational, mentally stable person in the lot of them but the scapegoating has caused lifetime damage to me. Poor relationship choices, especially exhusband who was another version of my mother, manipulative, passive aggressive and emotionally retarded. Been thoroughly exploited by different 'friends'.

Anyway, the family have gradually imploded and I can't be blamed because I wasn't there. Win, win! Golden child brother has fallen out with my mother and by extension her cronies in the family although most blood relatives are estranged anyway. Cutting off the weapon of choice if there is conflict of any kind.

Received another text yesterday from my brother asking to meet up. He has moved away from my mother and is now NC. I received an email from his wife a few months ago telling me I was right all along about my mother and they had seen the light and wanted to reestablish contact with me and my sister as brothers and sisters, cousins, aunts and uncles were an important part of a functional family! I ignored both the email and a prevoius clumsy text my brother sent me to meet up.

My rant is I know contact with them is a bad idea and will result in old patterns happening again ie reestablishing myself as the scapegoat to unload all their crap onto. But mind and heart compete and I feel 'bad' for not replying. I feel guilty and also deeply sad that my relationship with my brother and sister is so fucked up because of my toxic mother's divide and conquer policy.

Some of the things my lovely brother and sister in law did to me in the period before no contact:

Set up a secret meeting for my mother and my daughter at their house when I first went NC with my DM. Told my daughter not to tell me. Totally traumatised my DD with the position they put her in.

When I confronted my DB about it, he told me it was his house and could do what he wanted.

DB turned up without DW to an Easter lunch I organised. They had had another falling out. No warning or apology for her no show ( yet again). DB proceeded to offload for three hours solid about DW. Never asked me once how I was or how DD was doing. DH had just moved out of house pre divorce.

Sister in law cut me off some months after. No explanation although I suspect my DM manipulated that one. Best gift ever in hindsight.

Sister in law was very keen to share family gossip to all and sundry about my 'mental health' as diagnosed by members of my family who I hadn't seen in donkey years. Once the mad one always the mad one.

DB invited my estranged husband to stay for New Years with my daughter. DH omitted the invite to me so I ended up home alone, not that I would have gone with estranged husband. DB was aware of the situation so not sure why he was expecting us to turn up together. DB commented on DH manipulation of the situation but continued to invite him to other events without me and tried to continue Friday night boys club until exH told him where to go. Had no further use for him.

DB has treated me with complete disinterest since NC with DM and subsequent divorce from DH. Ten years of no contact at Christmas, birthdays, Easter and other 'family' holidays. Never asked if me or his niece okay. Didn't acknowledge gifts sent to him or my DNs. Made no attempt to meet up or see me.

So why is he expecting to play happy families now? He threw me under the bus to move next door to my DM. Does he honestly expect me to forgive and forget?

Rant over and best wishes to all the other victims of dysfunctional families on this thread. My life is ten thousand times better than it was when I was involved with my family. I just wish they would leave me alone to continue healing.

Dacquoise

Do not let your heart rule your head here!!!. You also think with your brain, not your heart.

Would suggest you block each and every way of your brother being able to contact you now for your own emotional well being. You did not reply to his wife's previous e-mail (she needs to be blocked too) and I would urge you most strongly not to reply to your brother's most recent text now. The man could not even be bothered to speak over the phone but sent a text instead.

No good will come of replying; a reply is a response which should not be given and opens a door that should remain closed. The contact from him is unwanted and in any case you did not ask him to contact you. They are disrespecting your own set boundary to be left alone.

Flying monkeys are not interested in hearing your side of things so their opinion as it is should be ignored.