But we took you to Stately Homes - May 2020 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's May 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@LilMissRe. there could be many reasons why your Dad doesn't see you as you do. You are filling the gap of wife and mother in his household but the reality is he has neither. It also sounds like there might be cultural barriers at play but it doesn't mean you have to put up with it.

Move to your own house, especially now guidance has been lifted. Continue to focus on yourself and your son. Be the person you want to be and don't get pushed back into the box your dad wants you to be in.

LilMissRe

He does not care about you and never has, he does not care to see the real you because he does not want to. He has this narrative in his head which he is sticking to.

Your dad is abusive and acts like this because he can and he feels entitled to do so, he really does think he is doing anything wrong here. You in all likelihood married someone scarily similar to your dad, your dad saw a kindred spirit in this man.

What your dad is saying about you now is patently not true at all, he is merely projecting his own self hatred onto you. Pound to a penny his own childhood was mired in abuse too but its still no excuse or justification for how he acts now or has acted.

I would move out asap, this is no life for you or your son either. Moving out even during lockdown is encouraged particularly if there is abuse which there clearly is here.

minisok

There will never be any sort of rebuilding of bridges, there was never any bridge to burn. They just want you to stay in the role they assigned to you from birth namely that of scapegoat for their inherent ills.

I think your dad did receive those emails although he told you otherwise. And as for them wanting to see their grandchildren well that should not be at all happening. Your kids need emotionally healthy role models in their lives, your parents do not fit the bill.

I would stop at all trying further with your family of origin because they have not fundamentally changed. It is really not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist and you at all writing to them and forwarding them emails just allows them to further hurt you again. Your dad will continue to take his wife's side because he is weak, a bystander, her enabler and secondary abuser and your sister will remain the golden child. He has and will continue to throw you under the bus here to protect his own hide.

I would also think that your mother is not as ill as you have been told either; such people can and do use illness to further try and exert control over their victims.

Evening everyone. Sorry I havent had a chance to read through the thread yet. Been busy running after my 3 year old
Got to say a good thing coming out of this lockdown is seeing my parents less! I also haven't texted or spoke to my mum as much either. And it's pretty peaceful.

Couple of things have been niggling however. I spoke to her the other day about DS dad and that I'm worried my ex will try turn him against me (ex was/is abusive towards me). Her reply was well I've screamed at you loads before and you still love me don't you. I was a bit like 🙄🤔 well I never liked you screaming at me. She just is in total denial that her behaviour towards me and DSis had any impact of us. She thinks she was the perfect parent. Actually makes me laugh.

Also another thing that came up the other day over Face time was my dad mentioning years ago when them two were on holiday my mum couldn't sleep. So instead of getting up and sitting outside/reading. She decides to wake my dad up and tell him she can't sleep. She then punches herself in the head!!! Wtf!! I was laughing at this point and said you do realise that sounds crazy. My dad said yea I know and she said we'll I was so angry I couldn't sleep 🙄 so she wakes my dad for an audience and does that. Totally bizarre. I actually think she has some serious issues I didn't even realise she had.

It’s odd @AttilaTheMeerkat as I always thought father was the abuser and mother the enabler. But perhaps they both have both roles in different ways. Father is the volatile one, the loud one. The physically threatening. Actually, mother can be the physically abusive one. Emotionally and mentally manioukative. My eldest niece left home to live with her dad’s family after a row with my sister and mother. Mother slapped her and didn’t see that there was anything wrong in that. They didn’t speak for quite some time.

Our children are not pawns to be used and are well protected from their grandparents, and now their aunt, with our eldest getting fb. She doesn’t need to be stuck in the middle on social media and to be fair, up until that point hasn’t mentioned my side of the family at all. It’s been a very long time since the children have asked when they will see my parents again. If they ever get brought up even the youngest has come out with we don’t see them because they cannot be nice people!

But you are right. With the loss of grandma, father’s mum, they now need me to sit in my box nicely and not make waves. My sister desperately needs to be in control.

I have doubted myself how ill mother might be. Of course conveniently father is NOK and have been advised by him he is point of contact, I get it, I do. But part of me also wants to ring the hospital and find out myself what’s going on. I’ve deliberately not asked for updates.

I thought at the start of lockdown that it was the ideal time for a tentative bridge building but everything is too much for them. Mother is harbouring a serious grudge as the last communication I had from her was a one word reply to my email. She was/is desperately trying to put me back in my box because otherwise she and father have to admit that what I have said is true. That sister is the golden child. I am scapegoat/black sheep.

I’ve never contacted my parents about the time mother visited pil and completely slagged me off to them. I assume they think we don’t know, because they would assume if we knew we would have been in touch. I mean, how utterly inappropriate is that. And I am grateful that my pil seem to like me. To chat with me and be honest with me. I can be honest with them and ask their advice or for help without feeling like it’s an imposition. They respond because they want to and not because we have grandchildren for them.

I think you’ve written what I knew, but didn’t want to admit. I thought 3 years of peace might have changed things. One thing is for certain though. Despite everything, my MH is better when they’re not in my life. I’ve already found I am snippy and less able to sleep from just 2-3 communications. My assumption for the missing email was that either mother or more likely sister or her dh had deleted it. Paranoid maybe but her dh is a tech whizz and father is a complete idiot when it comes to computers. I know if I were to visit now, I’d be able to walk in, switch his computer on and access anything and everything on it. So you understand an email going missing isn’t out of the realms of possibility. But to go down that rabbit hole invites further opinions and criticism, insistence of sister doing no wrongs.

For my own mh, I need to put this to bed and move on again.

Following this thread now as I've just found it. I made my own thread last week to make sense of my experiences but now see it might be best to do it here.

Welcome @Yorkshirelass04, hope you find some help here.

Thanks @Fanthorpe that's very kind.

I'll copy some of my other thread here so you can see where I'm coming from. I'd be interested in particular if anyone has had middle class professional parents who messed them up in specific ways.

I had controlling helicopter parents who I think had me as an extension of themselves and to see what marvellous individual they would create together. I was cared for but there was a lot of pressure; and I was only as good enough as my last achievement. To this day, I get restless if I'm not achieving. I used to draw my self worth from work, but I'm getting better.

Hi @Yorkshirelass04

I can relate. I got straight As but it seemed like no one wanted to know me. No one seemed to care that I was deeply unhappy. I overheard my mother on numerous occasions talking about me in ominous tones. She has always sought to label and control me.

I'm quite a long way down the road of interrogating my earlier life. Reading others experiences is very validating. And things do get better and easier. It's worth the effort and pain of confronting the past.

I am learning that it's the ones we love we give the power to hurt us.

We have lost my mother. Covid got the better of her. I am glad that I sent an email when I did. Even though it wasn't received well and recent days have seen some awful communications come my way, I am at peace with her passing. Of course, this will now open a whole other can of worms but right now, I can say I did the right thing.

Wow mini that must bring up a whole lot of emotions I’m glad you’re at peace, take it easy though xx

mini

I am very sorry to hear about your mother. I am also glad to read that for now anyway you are at peace here with her passing.

I’m so sorry mini that’s awful news. Look after yourself.

Sorry to the previous poster about losing her mum.

@LivingThatLockdownLife it strikes me that if parents had a child that met the traditional criteria of success then people don't get why you have any reason to find your parents unsupportive.

Looking back I was overwhelmed and depressed from about the age of 11. I wish my parents had taught me to love myself.

For some reason being in lockdown away from everyone has really let some emotions out I'd been sitting on...

@Yorkshirelass04 do you want to link to your thread here?

From what you’ve said you’ve lived your life largely unseen and unheard by your parents, like a placeholder called ‘daughter’ rather than a person with feelings and desires.

Being in lockdown has been an emotional time for you, feelings that you’ve squashed down and ignored are roaring back and your usual coping mechanisms are failing you.

Is that it?

Hi sure, my link is here: Emotional abuse and middle class families www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3917816-emotional-abuse-and-middle-class-families

I guess the lockdown has cleared a lot of day to day noise and is giving me time to think!

I’ve read your thread. Your parents had an incredibly dysfunctional relationship, they’re manipulative and emotionally withholding. I’m guessing they had dysfunctional upbringings themselves. You were given a losing hand from the beginning.

The problem lies in the wish to resolve it and understand them. There’s no solution though. They chose to behave like they did, I wonder if there was a lot more between them that you didn’t see and you were being used to soak up their rage? The long punishing silences are unbelievably cruel (I had them used on me, so I know that wretched desperate feeling of hope for some comfort or kindness).
Did you have any other family relationships? It sounds like you were very lonely.

You can’t change them or the past. You can only change your own framing if it and find ways to give yourself the love and nurture that you deserve.

@Fanthorpe thank you. It's good to get an external perspective even though it's from a stranger. Just writing this down is helpful.

What gets me is the nosiness and controlling. I am a very private person now and it's almost like I have reacted against them, needing to have my own space. They have a habit of knocking on the door unannounced maybe once or twice a year and I struggle to conceal my annoyance. I can't help it.

No I did not have any other family relationships and I am an only child. They oversaw everything in my life until I was about 25, to the point where I didn't know who I was or what I wanted. I only see that now.

It is a sad place to be in when you realise nobody (apart from perhaps one arsehole boyfriend) has spoken to you and tore apart your character as much as your parents. I think I have used crying as an automatic response to negative situations as an adult, as it was the only way to stop them from going on at me.

You are right about their relationship, and neither felt appreciated by their parents. They are 70 and still have screaming arguments with each other. I was called round to their house last year to help sort one out as my mum had gone beserk at my dad. My mum does not react well to criticism from anyone and quite noticeably gets depressed if someone critiques her or does not fully appreciate her.

I am very driven and successful as an adult and on one level that is positive, on another level I wonder if my parents could have achieved that with me without creating damage?

I think lots of children of narcissists operate on the basis that if they try their very best then maybe they’ll make their parents happy. I certainly remember resolving to be as well-behaved and helpful as I possibly could when I was quite young, but it made no difference, I would still err in some way that I hadn’t seen was wrong. It’s hard to say if your diligence and success comes from their upbringing if you. It’s possible to have hard-working ambitious children who are emotionally nurtured as well though. I think you’re looking for positives and that’s not a bad idea. Give yourself credit as well though, you’ve done the hard work.

The turning up unannounced is just further confirmation of their lack of boundaried behaviour. You’re their possession, so you don’t really merit any consideration of whether you might say no to the visit. Imagine smiling politely and closing the door in their faces. You could you know.

@Yorkshirelass04 it's really common for narcissistic parents to push you to do well academically whilst neglecting you emotionally.

They want to brag about how well they have raised you, look how well my child has done, because of me and my parenting.

As for me. I received a message from a random relative to say M is in hospital having had an accident.

I'm remaining NC.

I used to post on here a few months ago under a different username. I am early 20s and live at home still. I think my Dad is narcissistic.

I cope at home by being as helpful as possible and bending over backwards to help with whatever I can. I realised today though how useless all the effort I go to is and there is no way of making my Dad happy. I spent all weekend helping my Dad. Whenever he is doing anything like DIY he gets really angry and he shouts a lot and makes a lot of noise so I go and help because I feel myself getting stressed.

Last night there was an argument in our house and I stood up for my sister. He tells me if I don't like it then to leave and tells me I am useless and never help with anything. I spent a whole weekend helping him? I am as helpful and accommodating as possible so when he says to leave it feels like the ground has fallen from beneath me and like I have no security. He will get more angry at me for something small than he ever would with my siblings. It has made me realise that I don't think my Dad really cares about me at all, it's all manipulation.

I know I need to move out ASAP. I had planned on moving out in September but that has fallen through because of the coronavirus.

@xSadDaughter

I'm really sorry to hear you are having a rough time. What happens when you try and talk to him ie convince him he's being unreasonable? I know from experience there is often no point as they enjoy the conflict too much.

I hate hearing swearing and shouting too, even if it's not directed at me. It's really stressful. My parents have rowed to the extent the neighbours have asked if they are ok. In fact they are often not happy unless they are cross or complaining about someone else.

Moving out will probably do wonders for your wellbeing, so just hang in there.

@xSadDaughter I remember you, I’m so sorry to hear you’re stuck there, I’m glad you were making plans though, keep focusing on your plans to leave, you’ll get there at some point.

There are better times ahead. Your dad is wrong to treat you so poorly, you don’t deserve it. Concentrate on yourself, find ways to keep yourself as focused on your future as possible.

@Yorkshirelass04 Thank you for your reply. If I talk to him I can usually calm him down at least but I feel like I have to act quite fake and deliberately passive to do that which feels inauthentic on my behalf. However I could never, ever convince him that he is being unreasonable. In every situation he is always the victim and/or the one in the right. Sometimes he will apologise but it will always be "sorry for shouting but you did/said X, Y, Z" rather than just apologising.

@Fanthorpe Thank you both for your reply. It has definitely made me realise how much I need to move out and get some space. I just feel guilty for leaving my DM and siblings in that environment.