How much should we tolerate 'blokey'/sleazy male behaviour?

[NoMoreDickheads]

So, I agree nowadays with the poster on another thread who was given the creeps by a bloke she knew drunkenly saying while messaging as a friend that he would like to see her naked. I have blocked men for less, even for variations on 'hello beautiful' on messenger.

But I imagine that a lot of people would have a 'blokes will be blokes' attitude to stuff like that, and expect men to try and get sex or pics out of women, to make sexual talk and so on.

How much would you put up with this sort of thing from friends,, prospective partners, or boyfriends etc?

I think people's definition of a sleazy comment varies

Absolutely right.

So when I say “I think X is sleazy” it is absolutely my right to think so, and really nobody can tell me I am wrong because it is my experience.

The intention matters not, it is the end result that’s important.

I am zero tolerance on sleaze (would be a great t-shirt!)

Yep you're not wrong there Marie and that T shirt would be useful on the tube.

It's fucking awful if women feel they have to put up with unwanted sexual comments or advances because they're conditioned to be nice, polite or whatever. So yes you have a right to not tolerate anything you perceive as sleazy.

I wrote a long winded reply, but thankfully for you all it got half-deleted by a bug I get with this site sometimes.

@SmileyClare This particular bloke I didn't meet via OLD, but at a group thing and then we were chatting via messenger (as far as I'm concerned, as friends. I wouldn't OLD, now, esp as I'm not looking for anyone. Am doing Freedom Programme mainly for my own interest and have met a lot of supportive women there. My experiences haven't been as severe as there's- I've 'mostly 'only' experienced the sexual coercion aspect.

I think in the 90s women still steered clear of sleazy men or those who gave them the creeps. It just wasn't as obvious as there wasn't an overt ghost or block..

@MarieQueenofScots I did used to be quite inappropriate, but it was mostly before I was medicated for severe mental health problems. Most men don't have that excuse, and even if they did TBH it wouldn't be what I was looking for in a partner.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras I get what you mean, as people can not 'like my face' etc. But IMO being anti-sleaze /'the creeps' is about personal safety and comfort and I'm not going to set that aside.

I am zero tolerance on sleaze (would be a great t-shirt!)

We should totally make that. I've 'made' a few for bestie on Cafepress and it was easy to do. Or how about one just with this:-

A shirt just with a 'no' sign I mean. :)

*;severe as their's'

So when I say “I think X is sleazy” it is absolutely my right to think so, and really nobody can tell me I am wrong because it is my experience.

Absolutely, you have every right to find whatever you like sleazy or disagreeable but I think the crux is accepting that it is your interpretation. Because you find something sleazy it doesn't automatically follow that the person who said it is a sleaze or said it with the intention of being sleazy. That act of finding it sleazy belongs to you.

It's fucking awful if women feel they have to put up with unwanted sexual comments or advances because they're conditioned to be nice, polite or whatever. So yes you have a right to not tolerate anything you perceive as sleazy.

I don't think this is just a problem towards men though. As I said, it was drummed into me to be polite and that's something that I can't shake even now so I do frequently get cornered by people in situations where I'm a captive audience, and mostly it is by women and usually older women. I don't want to talk to them but I just get dragged into a conversation and feel pressured by convention to be polite. Personally, I would find it much easier to tell a sleazy man to clear off because it would seem acceptable to do it. It's not acceptable to tell someone who's being perfectly polite, decent, etc to "fuck off" is it, just because they started a conversation about the weather?

It's not acceptable to tell someone who's being perfectly polite, decent, etc to "fuck off" is it, just because they started a conversation about the weather?

You don’t need to. Again it’s a problem with social niceties if the only way to extricate yourself from a polite, but unwanted, interaction is “fuck off”

Because you find something sleazy it doesn't automatically follow that the person who said it is a sleaze or said it with the intention of being sleazy

Just as a matter of interest what does it matter to you whether I think a strange bloke is a sleaze. I appreciate you love to fight the good fight on behalf of men, and I’m sure they’re totes grateful.

But yeah, by this stage in my life I’m pretty able to judge who is a sleaze and they’re way more prevalent than you choose to believe.

Poor men, being thought they’re sleazy. If only there was a way they could stop being sleazy....

I'm not particularly sticking up for men. I just find your attitude of "I'll find whatever I please offensive, even if it's not offensive because that's my right" odd. Find whatever you like offensive but that's your issue. Same as it's my issue that I don't want random strangers starting conversations with me on the train - it makes me very uncomfortable and I don't understand how to shut it down without coming over as an arsehole BUT that's on me. That's not the fault of the person who just wanted to connect with someone is it? I would be wrong to ascribe an intent to their interaction that really only exists in my interpretation. So, if I find an elderly lady talking to me on the train annoying, intrusive, nosey, whatever, that doesn't mean that she was being any of those things, or that she intended to be those things but that is how I've experienced it.

I personally cannot stand this type of behaviour in men. My ex started out with the 'beautiful' and 'sexy' malarkey and as a 21 year old I was quite flattered. When we would meet, if he spotted me first, he would wolf whistle at me, which always felt a bit gross though. Interestingly, if any man did the sane at a club, I would always call him out on it, so I guess I didn't mind with the ex so much as I was quite besotted with him.
It quickly became apparent that he did indeed find me sexy and beautiful, but these were really the only attributes of mine he seemed to like ( I am actually average looking but scrub up ok ;)).
He never asked me any questions about myself as a human being, often told me to shush when I talked, and often made me feel like a burden and that he never really liked me as a person. After we broke up, he did indeed refer to me as a burden, so my feelings on the matter were correct.
He comes from quite a rough background, with traditional type attitudes to women amongst the men in his family. Basically, he wanted me to look good on his arm and stfu. This always bothered me as I tend to get along with most people and am able to strike up and engage others in conversation, so that relationship gave my confidence a battering.
So yes, I feel this type of behaviour is absolutely objectifying. It's nice to be thought of as sexy, but only if the man likes and respects the rest of you. Due to this, any man who opens with 'hello beautiful' is promptly shut down, if I've had a few vinos, God help him, because he's in for a rant also.

“What I was responding to was whether a two-word greeting can be sleazy - and my response is, yes, yes it can.”

Really? Then why were you arguing up and down with me yesterday when my point was only that “hello beautiful” is not automatically sleazy? You seem to have changed your mind category because yesterday you were saying that “hello beautiful” is always sleazy.

Poor men, being thought they’re sleazy. If only there was a way they could stop being sleazy....

This is the thing that really gets me wrt to ever considering dating again. I have had so many experiences with men where even the ones who are apparently 'decent' and respectful and who understand feminism etc turn out to be complete sleazebags.

I know they're not all like this and I have had many experiences, maybe with men colleagues and some partnered up men where this isn't the case with me personally but then I've found out from someone else that he actually is a sleaze, just not trying to be sleazy with me!
I think my confidence is massively rocked because of my most recent partner, he said and did all the right things for a long time and I thought, and all my friends said he was a good un.
so it was a real shock to find out he is actually very much living a double life.
And the same with a recent on/off 'crush'.
These guys don't give any outward sleaze signals, and with both of them, particularly my ex, it was a very long slow burner of chasteness prior to anything happening so I thought it was safe to pursue something which wouldn't lead to me feeling used.

Fortunately with this recent crush nothing has actually happened because he got lockdown drunk and turned up the sleaze factor really fast and unexpectedly so I could shut him down but had he not got drunk we would still be chatting now and I'd be looking forward to a post-lockdown date with him.
.

I think most men know exactly how to behave in order to not appear sleazy but when it comes down to it, given the opportunity, lots of them will take their chances.
with the pornification of everything including fashion, music and mainstream sex, I do feel that there are lots more women giving men the real life porn factor in order to attract men (and likes) so that men are having very sexual expectations of women. Since I divorced and started having sex again I have noticed very different sexual expectations from men than my pre marital days.
All expecting 'toys', 'dressing up' etc quite early on as well as other much more extreme fantasies. Anal and shaved expectations seem to be very popular (I am old school re shaving)
And requests for things which are niche in porn itself.
I am pretty adventurous and Liberal but I prefer to explore these things with someone I know well and feel comfortable with, not a virtual stranger.
One guy turned up on our third date with a bag containing leg irons and mouth tape 'as a treat' for his birthday
I could hear it clanking in his rucksack. Which he brought to dinner. This is a a guy who has a professional job and there was NO evidence of sleaze in our build up to dating, nor on our previous dates.
I love a bit of bdsm fun but we hadn't even discussed it.
Its a funny story to tell my friends but, mein gott, what a presumption. Had I been younger I might have not had the ability or confidence to say no and could have found myself in a frightening situation.

It's even a thing on tinder to get recognition for the highest number of likes/swipes so the competition is real and I guess a certain type of guy will play on that and keep pushing and pushing the boundaries to get what they want.

I wonder if anyone has actually done any studies on the changing attitudes to sex? The fifty shades phenomenon for example, wasn't fuelled by men was it? That was a book, written by a woman, aimed at women and made popular by women long before it was on men's radar so where did that come from?

I suspect it's way too simplistic to just blame men. It's much more complex. Even in what you've just said, you've sort of blamed women for joining the conspiracy that you now feel you've fallen foul of. How does that work?

Blaming women for centuries of being manipulated into pleasing men? Particularly young and vulnerable women who are being exploited and have disordered eating etc to try and fit into a stereotype of what will please men?
The fifty shades phenomenon was a about a pile of pap that became popular partly because of clever media coverage.
everyone talking about introduced bdsm ideas to the mainstream and multiple people traded off it including men.
That watered down pap version of bdsm has in fact encouraged a lot of men to prey on vulnerable women and dress up their abusive tendencies up as being a Dom to a vulnerable submissive.
Just because fifty shades was written by a woman and has made sex less vanilla for a lot of people doesn’t make men any less culpable for exploiting and abusing women on a mass scale.

famousforwrongreason

Fifty shades was being spoken about between lots of women long before it was in the media. I am just curious how you were blaming certain women for engaging in certain sex acts for raising men's expectations. Then you say that you enjoy some BDSM. So isn't that odd? You feel free to enjoy the type of sex you enjoy but other women are wrong for having the sex they want?

If men were inappropriate, too presumptuous towards you then that's on them isn't it? It's not the fault of other women for enjoying certain types of sex.

I never put up with it.
I'm single, happy being single, mostly because most men are like this. I've on,y met two that didn't try it on with me. One was a friends husband, and the other is the owner of my favourite pet shop.
All the men in my street have sleazed at me in different ways, and their wives hate me, because they blame me for it. So I don't get in with any9 e on my street, and have had to call police due to harassment. The policeman was also sleazy, looking me up and down and telling me it was down to jealousy. But I can never complain about it, because as I've discovered, women are nasty to me if I do, and men get angry.
I wish someone had taught me about all this, I've taught my daughter and trained her to have boundaries.

@flabbyflabbyflabguts this exact scenario has happened to me, so much so that none of the women in what used to be a tight knit group will speak to me anymore.
It was OK when we were all married as I was 'safe' then, but I have had several of the husbands sleaze on me and talk about me in front of the wives saying I'm the best looking woman in the street etc. It's awful and makes me feel like a pariah when I walk outside and our kids all play together, the women actively turn their backs. I've never been interested in other peoples partners.
I am teaching my kids about boundaries for sure. I have had no end of problem with tradespeople too and have made a point of seeking women tradespeople wherever I can.
I have had some men who have worked for me and been completely appropriate and then when I've recommended them to other women they've been sleazy and tried it on with my friends!
One married guy came to quote for a new bathroom and sent me a quote wgi h wouldn't even pay for the toilet seat.
When I queried it he said that lots of his women customers pay in different ways.
He was creepy af. I feel vulnerable now whenever I need a job doing if I haven't already got someone 'safe' in my contact list, people recommended by friends have turned into absolute horror shows in my house.
At this stage I honestly feel like I don't want to ever put myself out there again because of my own experience, that of my friends, things I read on here and the shit I deal with in my job. Older friends tell me that once the menopause hits then I'll lose interest in sex but despite my age, my libido is still raging, its a real bloody inconvenience.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras you're reading me describing symptoms and interpreting it as me apportioning blame.
My point is that lots of women and young women and even school girls think they have to behave and look a certain way in order to attract men and this idea has been forced upon them by men.
Just because I say I enjoy certain sex acts doesn't mean that I have to or want to do them all the time but there are many people who don't enjoy them but partake in them because they feel thry have to in order to be attractive, get likes and to keep a man from straying.
How is this blaming? I find it sad.
If you have ever worked in safeguarding or with cse or with vulnerable kids you would understand my point.

We all have different ideas about acceptable opening lines, but how about we all just treat others as we want to be treated. I don't feel I have been sleazed on all my life and I'm happy to engage in conversations anywhere with anyone, I think it's very sad that people can't do this without being judged for ulterior motives.

I see the best in people but am not naive and will always call people out on sexist behaviour, I'm single and not considered a pariah in the neighbourhood because my neighbours husband's are happy to be friendly but are actually in love with their wives. I don't want to view all men as predators as that is not my experience at all, I find it hard to believe someone would proposition you in an interview situation too, although we never interview 1-1 So this in itself seems odd.

I have a daughter with strong feminist principles who doesn't hate men and a son who I'm pretty confident treats women with respect and has male and female friends he views as individuals not future sexual conquests.
There are idiots of both sexes, we need to ensure our self worth is strong enough that whenever someone pushes our boundaries we pull them up on it to highlight it's not acceptable, at the same time remembering that that is one individual not all men.

I feel very lucky to have had lovely men in my life, relatives, friends, colleagues, some I wasn't so enamoured with I clashed with over their views or treatment of women and no longer speak to but I don't buy into this all men are out for one thing mentality.
Oh and I do agree with rave comments, it was baggy jeans or tight clothes, essentially whatever the fuck you wanted to wear, didn't matter as it was about the music and you knew you would look shocking by 4am so anyone trying to chat you up better be interested in your personality more than looks and have some decent music chat to bring!

@famousforwrongreason

Sorry, that makes no sense. You're saying that women and girls look a certain way and do certain things in order to attract men and have been taught to be this way by men. But then you say that you enjoy certain things but don't have to do them ( of course you don't, no one does).

So, according to you, other women do certain things because they want to attract men but you're different - you do them because you enjoy them??? What????

How about you do things because you've decided not do them and enjoy them and other do things, maybe different things to you, because they choose to and have decided not do them?

I really disagree with your opinion that other women are men's puppets but you are an independent woman pleasing only yourself.

RamblingRose1

That's a very sensible and balanced post. I completely agree.

@hearhooves that is NOT what I'm saying. Some people are vulnerable to abuse and exploitation because they want to meet the expectations of abusive and exploitative men.
Some people genuinely enjoy a variety of acts.
Some people do things because they feel like they have to.
Many fall somewhere in the middle.
What is a no-no for some is acceptable for others.
There is a spectrum.
You are being deliberately obtuse for an argument.
At the risk of a ban or deletion, I recognise your name from other threads. You are a professional contrarian and I can't be bothered to argue with you.

famousforwrongreason

I'm not being obtuse at all. In your initial post you claimed that men you were meeting were expecting certain forms of sex and you blamed other women for having raised men's expectations in this way. You didn't mention, or even hint at, exploitation or coercing.

It's you who is being obtuse now by claiming that you were talking about sexual abuse, when you weren't at all.

Glad you're doing the Freedom Programme Op. It sounds as though your past experiences of abusive relationships plus your bipolar disorder means you need to have strong boundaries in place, and also some help working out what/ where those boundaries should be.

I remember you from previous threads. Particularly one quite recently where you admitted continually (knowingly) having affairs with married men. I think that is sleazy behaviour from you and you're not being quite honest when you paint yourself as a victim here.

It's fine to expect principles, respect and a good moral code in a man but those standards should apply to everybody.

I do feel that there are lots more women giving men the real life porn factor in order to attract men (and likes) so that men are having very sexual expectations of women.

Here we are. Where does this even hint that you are referring to women being made to do this or being exploited?

You've changed your argument and are now trying to twist it by blaming me for being obtuse.