How much should we tolerate 'blokey'/sleazy male behaviour?

[NoMoreDickheads]

So, I agree nowadays with the poster on another thread who was given the creeps by a bloke she knew drunkenly saying while messaging as a friend that he would like to see her naked. I have blocked men for less, even for variations on 'hello beautiful' on messenger.

But I imagine that a lot of people would have a 'blokes will be blokes' attitude to stuff like that, and expect men to try and get sex or pics out of women, to make sexual talk and so on.

How much would you put up with this sort of thing from friends,, prospective partners, or boyfriends etc?

RantyAnty
“We know you're interested. You wouldn't be trying to talk to us if you weren't.”

You see I have a massive problem with that mindset: Thinking that talking with a man = sexual interest in the man. That is what leads to sexual assault and victim blaming- As in why were you talking with him if you were not interested? You asked for it!

I don’t assume a man is interested just because he’s trying to talk to me and I expect men to also not assume I am interested just because I happen to be talking with them.

When I was very much younger I had a massive crush on a very handsome chap until one day I overhead him taking to his mate about an attractive woman. His words: I bet she bangs like a barn door. My infatuation died that day

Thinking that talking with a man = sexual interest in the man. That is what leads to sexual assault and victim blaming- As in why were you talking with him if you were not interested? You asked for it!

I don't really get what you're saying as it seems to contradict what you've said before in a way.

That is exactly what the 'hello beautiful' guy was doing with me. In my case it wasn't OLD and it wasn't quite his first approach, but I was chatting to him on messenger purely as a friend/acquaintance I'd met once a few days previously, but he thought chatting to him meant he could make that comment.

As PP's said, it's over-familiar and that's why it's creepy, because he overstepped what I was comfortable with, and that means he has a potential risk of doing so IRL in other ways.

I also think it was insincere and implied he thought I could be easily persuaded into stuff or something, as I'm older than him.

@PlanDeRaccordement, Google it. Something old people do

Gosh I had so much to say @NoMoreDickheads but I lost my reply when the phone battery died. But I agree with your points again.
I am also traditionally working class and I still expect a suitor to put in a bit of effort.
When I was online dating I was equally put offf by people saying 'hi' as I was by the ones who'd say 'hi sexy' or 'hi beautiful'.
That level of effort doesn't appeal to me.

I've had a lot of hi babes & hi huns as I'm from a WC background & Working Class men (and many women) just talk like that.
In fact some of my & male female colleagues will say how are you hun, alright babe, alright love / sweetheart etc, not in a patronising manner just in a non sexual affectionate manner.
So I definitely don't consider that language to be 'sleazy'. And wouldn't block a man during online dating for using it. I would however wonder how articulate he is and whether (this is awful but) hes as educated as i'd like him to be.

So what do I consider sleazy in the context of online dating / meeting men in bars??
Sleazy is when a guy starts commenting on anything below the neck without being invited to.
Sleazy is unasked for dick pics or requests for photos (they always get a pic of my cat).
Sleazy is when they start on the sexual talk before you indicate that you want them to basically.
A compliment like 'your eyes are pretty' is acceptable to me. Saying 'I would like to give you a massage' apropos of nothing is sleazy.
Sleazy gets deleted & blocked.
For the record I just wouldn't believe any man who said 'hello beautiful' it's just cheesy really.

Sometimes male patients or even colleagues at work can be sleazy towards me. Initially I may ignore them if it's not too awful. If they persist they get a verbal telling off from me. Or I will report them & record a cause for concern about their behaviour.

I used to put up with all sorts of behaviour from men until my early 30s but now I'm a lot more careful.
However the last man who I had to block was not sleazy at all. He just scared me off by declaring he loved me and we were meant to be together forever after just 3 hours together and he didn't even know me!! Eek!!

What’s wrong with “hi”? Nothing wrong with it except it’s Boring. Zero effort. No interest. You say “hi” to the postman or a bus driver or your elderly 80yr old neighbour.

But "hello beautiful" is so much better? It's one more word! It's also generic, low effort and no interest in you (as a person).

I don't put up with any sexist bullshit these days.

This thread makes me feel like a sleaze

I understand the irritation of generic phrases like "hello beautiful" just being thrown out there but they don't bother me in the slightest and I don't automatically assume the guy is a percy, sexist creep who needs to fuck off.

I'm also guilty of addressing guys as "gorgeous"...male friends..."hello gorgeous" that type of thing.

A hint to keep the sleazeballs away in OLD (well, it worked for me anyway!)...

When I first was on my profile if I'm honest was probably a bit wishy-washy. I went on dates and got fed up with the amount of non-serious men trying to take advantage.

It was after meeting yet another one of these men that I thought you know what? I'm fed up of this. I'm going to use my profile to tell it how it is, and say exactly what I'm looking for. So I did. Said that if you see my kids as "baggage" then you're not for me, if you prioritise work constantly and don't really want a relationship then no thanks, if you're not ever going to make compromises in life then it's not going to work etc. Just the truth basically.

My fiancé says he was blown away by the honestly of my profile and was the reason he made contact. He had been messed around too and was looking to settle down.

I'm currently 36 weeks' pregnant with his first (and last!) baby so I'm kind of happy I sorted my profile!

That's a great story, Rain!

I'm going to use my profile to tell it how it is, and say exactly what I'm looking for. So I did.

I did this too on OLD but it just meant they knew exactly what not to say and kept that stuff to themselves until further into the dating process. Waste of time.

So I definitely don't consider that language to be 'sleazy'

@Terralee I'Hello beautiful' I think is different to luv/hun/sweetheart.

If it was when I was alone with someone I think I'd feel a bit creeped on/cornered, and online it seems more oily than IRL.

I agree that 'you have lovely eyes' is different as it seems more like they're appreciating something about you as an individual without being overly sexual.

But I think it's possible that that comment could still be said by some creeps in a way that managed to convey that 'brrrrrr' vibe. Some men have that vibe who might be completely decent, poor souls. I'm still going to act on it when I get that feeling, though.

For the record I just wouldn't believe any man who said 'hello beautiful' it's just cheesy really

Yep- naff bollox.

However the last man who I had to block was not sleazy at all. He just scared me off by declaring he loved me and we were meant to be together forever after just 3 hours together and he didn't even know me!! Eek!!

Eeek! There was one poor guy, he didn't even really do anything, but it was unpleasant. Maybe it was just that I wasn't into him.

What’s wrong with “hi”? Nothing wrong with it except it’s Boring. Zero effort.

Not just zero effort in the message but also most likely haven't even read your profile. I used to have a profile that said I was only interested in women at the time, and I'd still get these sorts of messages, as they of course most likely haven't read profiles at all.

@PlanDeRaccordement

There lies the difference in men and women.

Women talk to both men and women just because they might think they are interesting or social pressure to be nice and friendly to people. Doesn't mean sexual interest.

Men really are simple.
Women are either 0 or 1 to them. 1 means they think you're attractive and would like sex with you if possible. 0 means they don't and they won't make any effort to talk.

Sex is a man's priority. That's just the way it is.

Glad it worked out @RainMinusBow, at least someone's had some luck

As someone said, even if you do this and be upfront with what you want, so many of them just view OLD as a hookup catalogue. They'll still message you knowing damn well they don't want anything. It's so infuriating, they'll string you along until they get bored and need a fresh ego boost.

I used to have a profile that said I was only interested in women at the time

So do women have a different approach? If women say something is it flirty but when man say it it's sleazy?

I'm trying to think of how flirting happened when I was dating and I can't remember. I'm quite sure though that I said very similar things to men as they said to me.

I think "sleaziness" is probably a fairly individual thing. What one person finds uncomfortable another is ok with. There's probably a level at which many would think it unacceptable but at a lower level it will be more individual.

I grew up in the West Country where you're constantly called "my lover" so I don't count endearments as sleazy at all.

Sleazy chat up lines annoy me, though I don't react as strongly as DSD who decked a man who started saying "Your dad must be a thief...." After he'd picked himself up off the floor he said "I was going to say that he must've stolen stars from the sky for your eyes." She gave him her death stare.

My favourite chat up line

I was once standing next to a truly stunning man at the bar who said he thought his GF was going to drop him. I replied not to worry, as I would catch him before he hit the floor. Total success.

The best (well funniest) chat I ever heard was a cheerful "I suppose a fuck's out of the question? " Creased me up.

nomoredickheads I had the same when I had a profile saying women only. So many men who clearly don't bother reading.

So do women have a different approach? If women say something is it flirty but when man say it it's sleazy?

I think women would mainly ask if the person wants to meet for a coffee or drink IDK. And chat for longer before they got into any sexting etc.

I didn't actually have any luck finding women on that site (think it was PoF but about 12 years ago.)

Women are a bit more guarded and cautious.

There also is the fact that men are far more of a risk to women, being responsible for the vast majority of sexual crime. So 'Hi beautiful' from a man has a far greater 'brrr' factor (spider sense of uncomfortableness/ potential danger) than from a woman. A woman would have to be far more graphic to give the same feeling (to a gay/bi woman I mean- of course a straight woman might feel more uncomfortable as they're not interested.)

Yes, it's partly individual. But I hope to have very little tolerance now after various sickos, especially my last one.

RantyAnty,

Yes I was told all that growing up. That boys only want one thing, sex. That a man and woman cannot just be friends.
Life has taught me otherwise. Men are complex creatures and they do value female friendships without sex.

I think in hindsight, I was fed the idea that men only make an effort to get to know a woman because they hope for sex specifically to control my behaviour around men to match the gender expectations of being a lady or a respectable woman.

Ahh, Plan, you're really confirming what I said earlier regarding women who are susceptible to lines like 'hello beautiful', I think I said 'women who are brought up in environments that hold traditional and rigid sex-based roles' or words to that effect.

And even though you may want to believe it, and no doubt you have moved on and gained a great deal of insight, the fact that you consider an opening of 'hello beautiful' quite appealing tells me that deep down those values you were taught, were marinated in as a young woman and a girl, they're still there, they still inform your actions and behaviour. They're really hard to shed. The idea, not just as a nebulous thought, that men and women are equal in value (different but equal), is very difficult to really grasp if you've been taught differently from the cradle.

If you really understood, you'd realise that 'hello beautiful' and similar come-ons are just demeaning, any man who uses that as an opener doesn't see you as an individual, just part of an homogenous mass of 'potentially sexually available women'.

And do YOU want to be just an available woman or do you want a relationship with an individual man?

If my son used lines like that and if my daughter fell for lines like that DH and I would feel that we'd failed as parents.

I can't stand male friends who've had no encouragement or flirting from me asking for naked pictures. I got this idea off an article but if I get any requests for nude pictures I sent this and wait for them to work it out. You'd be surprised how long it takes before they realise they haven't lost signal or their phone isn't broken

NoMoreDickheads (great username btw), I think 'you have lovely eyes' is worse in many ways than 'hello beautiful', it's the 'sensitive' version, lazy, unimaginative and predatory, but they're bright enough to know that the former is a turn-off for lots of women so that's the even more creepy back-up. It's still reductive.

Any man that initially approaches you with a comment about your physicality is just viewing you as a slab of meat, any man that is interested in YOU as a fully-rounded human being will at least strike up a conversation as he might with another man that he wanted to be friends with, as an equal.

RantyAnty
the fact that you consider an opening of 'hello beautiful' quite appealing

No, I disagree that “hello beautiful” is offensive and think it does not warrant automatic ghost/block or a “fuck off”. There’s miles and miles between “not offensive” and “appealing”

If you really understood, you'd realise that 'hello beautiful' and similar come-ons are just demeaning, any man who uses that as an opener doesn't see you as an individual, just part of an homogenous mass of 'potentially sexually available women'.

Sorry, it’s not a question of understanding. I simply do not agree that it is demeaning or with your sweeping sexist assumptions about the characters and intentions of all men who say “hello beautiful”.

And do YOU want to be just an available woman or do you want a relationship with an individual man?

Don’t you mean, and do I want to be just a whore or do I want to be a good girl? Is that supposed to convince me to behave and get offended at harmless chat up lines like all you respectable women do?

if my daughter fell for lines like that DH and I would feel that we'd failed as parents.

Why am I not surprised?