My 9 year old daughter hits us, punches us, kicks us, screams at us, and i dont know what to do :(

[JuatWantAdvice506]

Hello, seeking some advice. I feel lost.
My 9 year old daughter is amazing at school, as far as we know she gets on with her work and plays well with her friends.
But at home, it's like a whole different child.

She can be amazing and lovely and so funny. But even before lockdown, she had moments of lashing out but since lockdown it's been everyday.
Me and dp have been punched, kicked in the knees, she pulls her fists up at us, she punches me in the head multiple times,
She will hold us down and swing her hands around our necks like a monkey. When we try and get her off us or move her hands away to stop her punching us, she claims we hurt her and that she'll tell school, when we don't.
I just dont know what to do :( i filmed her backlash tonight which resulted in her trying to snatch my phone and try and hide it. I just feel like a useless mum and i broke down crying as she was punching me in the head the other day.
They happen for no reason as far as I see. Afterwards, I sit her down and tell her i love her and ask why she has done this and she said she doesn't know. We've tried to find other solutions like drawing, writing, punching pillows, behaviour charts, but she just always resorts to being violent.
She ripped the behaviour chart off the wall, she's smashed about 3 tablets by throwing them in a temper.

I just dont understand. Her sister is 7 and doesnt behave this way. Me and dp hardly fight and if we did, we'd never be violent to each other. It's getting us both down.
Any tips? And thank you in advance!

I recognise a lot of your DD's behaviour in my DD. The thing that struck me the most is the timing. Always late afternoon, around dinner time. I would have said hangriness, but you say she starts after dinner? Is she getting enough sleep at night? Do you have a good overall routine?

My DD has gotten better slowly over the years, she's rarely violent now and doesn't scream so much. Really important that you and your DP agree on your united front. When she realises she can't play you off against each other, that'll cut out a lot of it.

I'd try changing the routing slightly, see if by changing things she doesn't automatically start her tantrum. I also give my DD food before dinner to stave off that desperate hunger that she doesn't even realise is there. So I might put out carrot sticks or olives, I don't offer! Or she'll refuse. But I notice her nibbling away if she thinks I"m not looking. Look out for those sorts of opportunities.

The biggest game changer was withdrawing any kind of attention from ALL of you during a tantrum. It takes a few goes before you start to see the benefit. Don't get despondent too quickly!

Good luck. This is so awful and soul destroying, but you're trying and you've had lots of good suggestions.

The fact that every single one of them made a massive improvement in their behaviour when they had boundaries and concequences means nothing then does It?
They didn't all make a massive improvement. You saw glimpses of improved behaviour, nothing lasting at all. Children behave differently for different people. There were cameras there. Children perform for the camera. Jo Frost did some ok stuff, but the show was very limited and doesn't demonstrate very much at all.

I have worked in schools where a child’s behaviour has changed dramatically simply by a change of teacher. One year they were in the process of being diagnosed with SEN/autism/sensory issues. The next teacher had a different teaching style and the child was no longer seen as needing intervention. She then continued to progress through the school with no further issues.

The qualities this teacher had that I feel made a massive difference were - authority, clear expectations, firm boundaries, was not afraid to say ‘no’, very organised / in control and she cared very deeply. I think the adult role should ever been underestimated - I think it’s a bit too ‘easy’ to label as PDA/autism.

My DD doesn’t have autism or any other SEN but she has suffered from extreme meltdowns since, well forever.

When they really started to kick off as a toddler I would sit down near her, but give her space and very quietly and calmly tell her I would help her but before I could the one thing she needed to do by herself was calm down as that was the one thing only she could do. I’d then give her the time and space to do that and just sit quietly by her until she was ready, obviously it was different as she was smaller and not physically attacking me.

She will still have a meltdown a couple of times a year, but she kind of knows the drill now. I never argue with her during these, i be consistent with asking her to calm herself down so I can help her, if she kicks off near others that would find it distressing (grandparents for example) I will remove her, although she is big enough to resist now she lets me (whilst still screaming/ranting/hinting out at stuff etc) because I think she knows now I will help her find a way out of it, it’s like her emotions overwhelm her and actually she’s desperate for a way out of feeling like that (funnily enough I suffered some episodes like this when expecting her).

The moment she gives me a cue she wants a way out of the tantrum without recriminations etc, I let her. I help her wash her face, get her pj’s on Etc) if she kicks off it is also usually around teatime funnily enough and a consequence is she goes to bed, but it is done kindly) that kind of thing, then we have a hug, and once she’s really calm and feeling safe we might have a little chat about for example if she has broken something that she now won’t have one, or if she’s broken something of someone else’s that she will need to use her pocket money to replace it, but again it’s down in a natural consequence kind of a way rather then a I decree you must now hand over all screens as you have been bad.

I don’t know if that all makes sense or is even very helpful but I thought I would share just in case.

@Corruptedtongue : The qualities this teacher had that I feel made a massive difference were - authority, clear expectations, firm boundaries, was not afraid to say ‘no’, very organised / in control and she cared very deeply. I think the adult role should ever been underestimated - I think it’s a bit too ‘easy’ to label as PDA/autism.

But the real factors that a teacher like can have which make a classroom much more "liveable" for someone with ASD may not be what you expect.
The classroom could be much quieter. There may be a clear routine, and it be highly predictable what is happening next. The rules may be explicitly stated. Low level disturbance nipped in the bud. Maybe the teacher was also less likely to inflict random dress up days?
A classroom with less sensory stimulus and with clear rules is much easier for a child with ASD to navigate.

But the real factors that a teacher like can have which make a classroom much more "liveable" for someone with ASD may not be what you expect. The classroom could be much quieter. There may be a clear routine, and it be highly predictable what is happening next. The rules may be explicitly stated. Low level disturbance nipped in the bud. Maybe the teacher was also less likely to inflict random dress up days? A classroom with less sensory stimulus and with clear rules is much easier for a child with ASD to navigate.

This, 100%. My son has thrived under the ‘strictest teacher in the school’ - not because she was imposing firm boundaries/discipline on him, but because she was imposing it on everyone else. The class is quieter and more ordered, making it easier for him to cope with sensory overload. She is also extremely organised and even simple things like having a timetable which is adhered to has really helped him.

I’ve read a few articles about the over diagnosis of ASD. That it now encompasses such a broad spectrum - and that diagnosis (at a low level) can be highly subjective.

Agree completely with the above.

Ffs, NOT with @corruptedtongue. You have no idea what life is like for parents with autistic children 🤬

It concerns me that a lot of children may be diagnosed incorrectly with ASD, whereas the key onus should be on the adult and the strategies they use. The child I’m thinking of had amazing input with one teacher, and then continued throughout the school without any further concerns.

Did you find it easy to get your kid diagnosed with ASD like Corruptedtongue?

Sorry - but there is an article here about overdiagnosis leading to a dilution of the condition - which I tend to agree with.
www.healthline.com/health-news/are-we-over-diagnosing-autism#Better-diagnosis-or-overdiagnosis?

Was that your personal experience?

@Corruptedtongue

That article refers to the dx process in the USA which is very different to the UK. It's also full of 'may be' and 'possible' so it's not definitive anyway. The US treat autism as an illness to be "cured" in the UK it's recognised as a lifelong, developmental disability.

This is the UK criteria for dx.
www.autism.org.uk/about/diagnosis/children.aspx
"Is it autism?
The characteristics of autism vary from one person to another, but in order for a diagnosis to be made, a person will usually be assessed as having had persistent difficulties with social communication and social interaction and restricted and repetitive patterns of behaviours, activities or interests since early childhood, to the extent that these "limit and impair everyday functioning"."

Please note the bit about persistent difficulties since early childhood and limit and impair everyday functioning
In this country, the diagnostic process can take years and no-one whose life is not affected to that extent receives a diagnosis, so all your posturing about over-diagnosis in a different country is at the least very misleading and at the worst deliberately goady.

OP, there's some great advice on this thread and there's some dreadful advice too. If you want to follow an assessment for AN and have any questions, please post in the SN section where you'll receive knowledgeable advice from parents who recognise your DD's behaviour and your concerns.

“The core features of autism — social communication and inflexible, repetitive behavior — have remained the same since the beginning,” said Frazier.

From that article. If a child doesn't have those issues, they won't get a diagnosis. If they do have those issues, good teachers will make a world of difference, but they'll still have those issues.

DD2 has HFA. I was shut down by 2 schools, despite DD2 falling apart. In the third school, which used composite classes, they realised they had a problem when DD2 had to change class in year 5, after starting in year 3. She became so unable to learn that she was asking the teacher to check she was sticking a piece of paper in her book correctly. She couldn't write at any length.

DD2 was finally diagnosed in year 7. A very clear diagnosis with very high scores. Yesterday, she said 'the trouble with eye contact is that I don't know which eye I should be looking at, because most people have 2 eyes.'

DD2 is so passive that she rarely tells us how she views the world. We discovered, when she was about 8, that she didn't know she was meant to close her eyes when she went to sleep. It was only a chance conversation, when she complained that, once again, she couldn't sleep. In exasperation, DH said "DD2, that was so quick, did you even close your eyes???" She said "No, why would I close my eyes?"

I have found that ASD gives my DD a completely original outlook on life and nothing can be taken for granted.

@BlankTimes
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/26/autism-neurodiversity-severe

Sorry, but I do think overdiagnosis should be addressed.

Episode two (i think it's that one) of "The Three Day Nanny" deals with this situation.

I’m no way am I being deliberately goady. I’m merely expressing a viewpoint that you don’t like.

Perhaps start your own thread Corruptedtongue? This is Relationships.

@Closetbeanmuncher The fact that every single one of them made a massive improvement in their behaviour when they had boundaries and concequences means nothing then

My dd had a HUGE turnaround in behavior when I learnt how best to help her cope and tackle her autistic meltdowns, didn't mean she didn't have boundaries before. She needed different ones that I hadn't known about until I started looking into it.

Regardless, the good thing about TV is that you can edit it however you like, and show only what you want...

I've made it absolutely crystal clear that aggressive behaviour is absolutely unacceptable in this house, we have tactile toys for angry meltdowns. Good for you, tactile toys do zero for my dd...

@Corruptedtongue do you have any idea what a diagnosis involves?

@Corruptedtongue do you have any idea what a diagnosis involves?

Unlikely I think. Or they wouldn't be here banging on about over diagnosis.

ex teacher here - have a look at a thing called PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance). Some people with this find life's ordinary demands too much and lash out over what to most people are trivial things. As the name suggests, essentially kids with PDA have a deep aversion to (as their pathology sees it) being 'controlled' by anyone or anything. They are also probably unaware of it themselves, hence the difficulty in pinning it down. If she is fine until any 'demand' is made on her, no matter how small or politely phrased, then PDA could be it, in which case you'd then be looking at GP/SENCO/Ed Psych and trying to get a diagnosis/statement so that you can get some help.

Simple checks you can do - can she make and maintain eye contact when you're talking normally (not in a 'telling off' situation) or does her gaze wander? Is she able to control her gaze? Can you pinpoint the moments when she starts to lose control of herself? And is there a pattern?

Very unusual for a girl of that age to do this in my experience, physically lash out I mean, especially at adults. Boys yes at that age, but girls would usually express aggression verbally, gesturally and socially at that age, not physically, so it's clearly an extreme reaction, which means that she is finding it difficult to control herself. Hope you can get to the bottom of it and good luck.

Oh also, it sounds strange I know but early onset puberty (happening more and more these days and no one is sure why) can have strange effects on girls if they're not prepared for it, just a thought.

Punishments will have no effect unless behaviour is chosen and is therefore modifiable. If the issue is the child controlling themselves and they are able to do that given an incentive then carrots and sticks might be marginally effective, but if she lacks self control or doesn't understand what's happening herself when she does this then to her it will almost feel as if she's being punished for something done by someone else once the red mist clears and she's 'herself' again. Hope that makes sense.

PS - screens in excess certainly don't help because they disrupt the brain's ability to focus. And someone with PDA will see anyone or anything that asks them to focus on something as a 'demand', whereas screens are 'undemanding' in that sense, that's why so many people use them to pacify kids.