My 9 year old daughter hits us, punches us, kicks us, screams at us, and i dont know what to do :(

[JuatWantAdvice506]

Hello, seeking some advice. I feel lost.
My 9 year old daughter is amazing at school, as far as we know she gets on with her work and plays well with her friends.
But at home, it's like a whole different child.

She can be amazing and lovely and so funny. But even before lockdown, she had moments of lashing out but since lockdown it's been everyday.
Me and dp have been punched, kicked in the knees, she pulls her fists up at us, she punches me in the head multiple times,
She will hold us down and swing her hands around our necks like a monkey. When we try and get her off us or move her hands away to stop her punching us, she claims we hurt her and that she'll tell school, when we don't.
I just dont know what to do :( i filmed her backlash tonight which resulted in her trying to snatch my phone and try and hide it. I just feel like a useless mum and i broke down crying as she was punching me in the head the other day.
They happen for no reason as far as I see. Afterwards, I sit her down and tell her i love her and ask why she has done this and she said she doesn't know. We've tried to find other solutions like drawing, writing, punching pillows, behaviour charts, but she just always resorts to being violent.
She ripped the behaviour chart off the wall, she's smashed about 3 tablets by throwing them in a temper.

I just dont understand. Her sister is 7 and doesnt behave this way. Me and dp hardly fight and if we did, we'd never be violent to each other. It's getting us both down.
Any tips? And thank you in advance!

It's not bloody autism as it would continue outside the home too

Sigh.
Long way to go before cracking the ignorance.

It is very difficult for a child to cope with being unchallenged and in charge, tempting as it can be to give in. Consistency is all important IMHO.

Absolutely agree @chickenyhead.

It's downright frightening for a child when she feels the adults are not in charge.

@Page3 My friends dd7 is the complete opposite could still be the same thing?
My daughter was the same at Primary school. This lead to endless meeting's where I was asked "What do you do when X does Y" and I would reply "she rarely/never does Y at home".
Home was quieter, she could escape to be alone, and she was given far more freedom to do her own thing, ie if she wanted to draw 9 times out of 10, she could. Also everyone in the family accepted her for herself and she didn't have to pretend, a 5 year age gap with her closest sibling probably helped.

Have a look at the symptoms of PDA on the autism society website.

We found it too late to get DD diagnosed. Camhs were useless, they saw it as a parenting problem, as she only exploded at home, never outside.

Good luck

Autism or not, the bottom line is that if she is behaving bad at home and good everywhere else, it is because the strategies to manage her behaviour at home are inadequate.

Most children only need clear rules that are applied fairly and consistently all the time. My DS had a lot of problems in school but none at home. He was definitively not allowed to do as he pleased at home, far from it. At home he had structure and clear rules, his actions had consequences and he was aware of what were the consequences. This was something the school was lacking with a stream of temporary teachers, having different rules every day was driving him crazy.

My partner’s kids are violent at home and well behaved everywhere else. They are also often thought as shy. I believe they are like that because at home they are the head of the household which is something a child may find overwhelming. A child that trusts their parents feel well cared for and respects their actions and decisions. If they don’t trust they feel the need to take over.

@reefedsail Are you deliberately missing the point.

If I stood in my dd's doorway preventing her from leaving her room it is not going to de-escalate her. In fact, it would make her worse.

@Closetbeanmuncher Jo frost made a multimillion pound career out of this sort of behaviour in children and none of them had autism. That should tell you something!

You interviewed them all, did you? No, of course you didn't, so you cannot say that with any surety. In fact, you have just made my point that you seem to know nothing about autistic children, implying that you can be sure of a lack of diagnosis of 100s of children just by watching them on a screen for 40 minutes!!

Jo Frost's secret to what she does isn't hard, and her calm manner and love of routine would actually make many autistic children thrive.

A few years ago you would have said my daughter didn't have boundaries, when she did. They were just hard for her to stick to because she isn't NT and couldn't understand them as I though she should. Yet knowing what I was dealing with and finding out the best way to tackle it has made a world of difference.

Autism or not, the bottom line is that if she is behaving bad at home and good everywhere else, it is because the strategies to manage her behaviour at home are inadequate. Most children only need clear rules that are applied fairly and consistently all the time. M

Yet again, it really isn't as simple as that. What tends to happen is that children with autism mask in school to try to fit in, but all day the stresses build up. They're caused by language problems which mean it's difficult to process what is going on, very difficult to understand figurative language and things like sarcasm, irony and jokes, or to make themselves understood and express their frustration. They're also caused by problems with sensory issues, particularly things like noise, crowds, smells, fluorescent lighting etc, which can become actively painful and make it very difficult to concentrate. Some children get bullied and ostracised for being different. All of that builds up during the day till it can safely be let out at home, and it's just impossible for the child to carry on keeping all that stress in.

In those circumstances you can have the clearest rules and boundaries in the world, it still won't stop that child having a meltdown.

@Holidaywindowshopperaddict It's not bloody autism as it would continue outside the home too

You obviously know nothing abut autism.

@TheMotherofAllDilemmas Autism or not, the bottom line is that if she is behaving bad at home and good everywhere else, it is because the strategies to manage her behaviour at home are inadequate

Another one who clearly knows nothing about autism. She will be masking elsewhere, which gives the impression of "naughty at home, good for everyone else" but it isn't the case.

As a pp said, do you honestly think that a 9yr old wants to hurt her family, and break her possessions? My dd is 11 and self harms, and she doesn't actually WANT to hurt herself, or rip up drawing that she spent days perfecting, but in the moment she just cannot help herself because during a melt down her reasoning shuts off completely.

Those who don't understand masking...

Imagine a coke bottle.

Imagine every little thing in your life being hard because of sensory overload:
dressing
grooming
eating
socialising
learning
Noise at school
demands from teachers
demands from friends
not having friends

Every time a demand of any kind, including the above is put on an autistic child, the bottle gets a shake. The shake gets harder and longer each time. (This is a typical autistic child in school)

Now imagine opening it (autistic child at home). It explodes, right...

And it isn't because there are no boundaries, but you try instilling boundaries when a overloaded autistic child is melting down because of everyday pressures. It doesn't happen.

You start adding demands and instructions you are just heaping more and more information onto that child, and keeping the status quo.

It’s probably worth remembering that most parents who have children who behave this way at home also have other children who are very well behaved inside and outside the home and have no behavioural issues whatsoever. In fact if they only had those children they would be praised for being consistent and amazing parents, yet they also have a child who struggles with rules and their behaviour/emotional development.

Have they now suddenly become passive, permissive, poor parents? Or might it just be the fact that all children are different and some require different parenting and a little more understanding and patience and some external support?

Most of these parents already know about routine, rules etc! Yes, sometimes it is parenting but most times it is the luck of the draw of the kind of child you have.

It’s really easy to judge and shout poor, inconsistent parenting when many times this is not the case. It’s that typical “good parenting” needs some adjustments because it does not have the same results with all children. Hence why often parents in this situation find themselves at a bit of a loss.

You might find the low arousal approach to challenging behaviour helpful. As it happens, there is a free webinar tomorrow. www.studio3.org

This is widely used in schools and is equally useful at home.

As a parent of a recently diagnosed autistic child this thread has been really helpful, I am looking at all the links now. So thank you.

@differentnameforthis you seem to think that your view of autism is the only one valid. So please stop treating people is ignorants.

Autism and Aspergers are very prevalent both in my family and my profession. I live in a world were being in the spectrum is part of daily life, so stop forcing a diagnose of autism and your view on how to be managed onto other people, what works for you may not be what works for them so stop allowing other people to put their views forward, the OP should not allow her DD to be diagnosed by strangers in a chat room, if this is a worry she needs to push for assessment BUT a diagnose doesn’t correct the problem, if the DD is diagnosed she still needs to find a way to manage her DD behaviour autism or not.

My daughter has autism op, she does great at school and has many friends.
I may get shot down here... but have you thought about dp being the problem? He seems to not want to help your dd, insisting she’s fine etc. What kind of a parent wouldn’t want a child to get better?

@TheMotherofAllDilemmas

Not forcing a diagnosis or my view on anyone, simply sharing why I think some people's opinions of how autistic children can & can't behave are wrong.

We all have autism (nhs diagnosed). It runs in the family.

Not a single one of us is violent. It is unacceptable. If the child is high functioning they can still have enough control to take themselves away to their room if they are having a meltdown and not to hurt themselves/others, though this takes a lot of time and patience and is ideally done when they are much younger.

To be completely honest it sounds like your punishments for unacceptable behaviour are inadequate, and you are being severely undermined in your efforts by your dp.

I've never hit anyone, including dcs, so I don't mean that. But you need to come in hard, fast and remove something they really care about immediately for a specified length of time, remove them immediately from a fun sitaution (zoo, party, theme park) or remove a privilege that needs to be earned back.

My nephew is also autistic, unfortunately my sister is not so didn't really know how to handle it. He currently has grey boundaries, which is no good for someone with autism, they need to be clear, black and white. I can only speak for myself but it makes me very upset and anxious if I am in a situation where I don't know clearly what the rules are.

And it is possivle to not look like you have autism out of the home. Dd's school teachers, every year, say they can't believe she has autism. She is impeccable at masking while there, but it take a mental toll. They only realise when something happens that dd can't mask through (taking instructions very literally, when they mixed up her lunch order, when the firealarm malfunctioned and she refused to leave the room etc.)

She has to have a meltdown when she comes home, it is a necessary release. At 7 she now knows how best for her to deal with this. She goes straight to her bedroom and plays her favourite greenday song on a loop and rocks until she is calm.

have you thought about dp being the problem? He seems to not want to help your dd, insisting she’s fine etc

It's a very common scenario when autism is suggested to parents that the father takes the stance it's absolutely wrong and his child is not autistic and does not need any assessments which leaves the mother to sort out diagnostic appointments and causes stress at home. There are lots of posts about this in SNChat and SNChildren.
Very often, only a word from the paediatrician or another medic can alter the father's viewpoint.

Many fathers and other relatives who are opposed to assessment for autism appear to be very black and white in their own thinking and are adamant there's only one correct neurological presentation for humans. In fact there are many and reinforcing the fact that "different" does not mean "wrong" can help. Finding examples of two things that achieve the same goal by using different processes can help explain that enormously. e.g. Windows and Mac computers can do the same things but they use different processing systems,
cars can run on electricity or petrol but both can do the same journey.

It is also very common during the diagnostic process to discover one or both parents have a lot of autistic traits or may even be undiagnosed autistic themselves, which then explains why they were so opposed to a diagnosis because they don't see the autistic traits in their children as any different to themselves.

You interviewed them all, did you? No, of course you didn't, so you cannot say that with any surety

The fact that every single one of them made a massive improvement in their behaviour when they had boundaries and concequences means nothing then does It @differentnameforthis?

Not putting in concequences for unacceptable behaviour autistic or not is cruel in itself, and autism isn't a golden ticket not to teach a child right from wrong.

I've made it absolutely crystal clear that aggressive behaviour is absolutely unacceptable in this house, we have tactile toys for angry meltdowns.

Specific diagnosable condition isn’t required to use techniques that would be useful. Noting that the behaviours described could match specific diagnosis is useful to find help with the behaviours.

Strategies, routines, consistency are incredibly important when trying to improve behaviours. They won’t all work, few to none will work instantly, it’s a long haul of trial and error to find the changes that work. Expect an initial increase in undesired behaviours when you start something new, this is normal, child thinks this worked before so keeps trying it, standard human behaviour. Anyone who has sleep trained, changed their kids diet, cut down on screen time has been through the initial awful before the new regime is accepted.

Strength to you OP. As far as your partner is concerned it might help to avoid using potential diagnosable conditions when you speak to him and frame it as something simpler like strategies. If you can get him on board with this is not good, child is showing she is not coping with her emotions and needs help to be happier it might avoid him not joining in.

I had some success with my ex using this instead of a more formal this actual diagnosis means we should do this.

Choctimeout, if every single member of your family suffers with autism then you should know it affects everyone differently. Not every high functioning child can control their feelings so they don't last out. When my daughter is calm she'd never dream of hurting anyone (or herself) but when the stress,is too much she hits out.
With some children you can't just say hitting isn't acceptable, they don't understand it. It's great that your family don't react that way but don't assume every child with autism reacts the same.
A conversation with my child would go like this
Don't hit, it's unkind and hurts
But I'm angry
I know you are angry but hitting doesn't help
It helps me to feel better.
The conversation will go round in circles because she finds it very hard to emphasise. She knows hitting hurts and is wrong but to her it's the way her anger comes out. She does it less now though, hurting herself instead.

Try the consistent boundaries and discipline first.

Really try to get your DH on board as it does no good when you try to enforce something and 2 minutes later he allows it.

Her threats of telling on you too when she doesn't get her way have to stop. She only seems to think that you'll get in trouble if you don't do what she wants.

She doesn't seem to think there are consequences for hurting you.
She's 9.
What type of discipline or consequences do you do?

Like next time she kicks off and punches kicks you, tell her firmly that it isn't acceptable and it hurts. Then tell her she is grounded for the rest of the evening. Take her to her room, even if you have to carry her in there. Take the screens/electronics out of her room and she has to stay in there and think about how hitting people hurts them.

Then when grounding is over, you start over with a clean slate. She's used to getting her way so expect her to test you quite a bit at first and expect her to go to Dad to get out of it. If she threatens to tell someone, just calmly say, they already know and they saw the pictures of you kicking/hitting me.

Just try that consistently every time she kicks off like that and see how it goes.

Does she have any chores she does? Try giving her one daily chore to do and be in charge of and tell her how important it is to the family when she does it. For example, she can be in charge of setting the table.

Try that out during the rest of the lockdown. Of course ring the GP for an appointment and get started on that too.

OP, just to reinforce the suggestions you've had to seek professional support. Randoms on the internet do not know your family circumstances, or your child. However well intentioned, not all of the advice that you have received would be appropriate in the context of some sorts of neuro-diversity, or some emotional or behavioural problems. If it was obvious I suspect you would be doing it already?

I had some behavioral problems as a child and my sister was the complete opposite; very "well behaved".

One thing that stuck with me was being referred to as "not normal", "abnormal" or even "weird" so even if you think she's out of ear shot I'd be cautious not to use those words (not saying you do though)

I really feel for you

Get some professional help, for her and yourselves!

My dad fitted me a boxing punch bag which I found very helpful to blow off steam. Some gps suggested medication which just sedated me but didn't get to the root causes and eventually I had therapy and cbt.

It helped to talk to my mum and dad about how I was feeling and I did so through letters Inslid under their door. Sometimes kids feel too overcome with anxiety/stress/shame/anger to explain things face to face so that might be an idea. You could initiate and write her a little letter first.

It could be any number of thing and you may well need to see a few different specialists to get different opinions.

Keep going! Things will change and you're doing great.

Social services have child practitioners that are very good at helping families deal with issues like this. Her outbursts sound horrific.