My 9 year old daughter hits us, punches us, kicks us, screams at us, and i dont know what to do :(

[JuatWantAdvice506]

Hello, seeking some advice. I feel lost.
My 9 year old daughter is amazing at school, as far as we know she gets on with her work and plays well with her friends.
But at home, it's like a whole different child.

She can be amazing and lovely and so funny. But even before lockdown, she had moments of lashing out but since lockdown it's been everyday.
Me and dp have been punched, kicked in the knees, she pulls her fists up at us, she punches me in the head multiple times,
She will hold us down and swing her hands around our necks like a monkey. When we try and get her off us or move her hands away to stop her punching us, she claims we hurt her and that she'll tell school, when we don't.
I just dont know what to do :( i filmed her backlash tonight which resulted in her trying to snatch my phone and try and hide it. I just feel like a useless mum and i broke down crying as she was punching me in the head the other day.
They happen for no reason as far as I see. Afterwards, I sit her down and tell her i love her and ask why she has done this and she said she doesn't know. We've tried to find other solutions like drawing, writing, punching pillows, behaviour charts, but she just always resorts to being violent.
She ripped the behaviour chart off the wall, she's smashed about 3 tablets by throwing them in a temper.

I just dont understand. Her sister is 7 and doesnt behave this way. Me and dp hardly fight and if we did, we'd never be violent to each other. It's getting us both down.
Any tips? And thank you in advance!

@wonkytonkwoman

What service would that be?
Your post is a rather inflammatory thing to say!
Should they continue to allow her to attack them on a daily basis? If she attacks another child? Continues damaging property?
You know how schools and hospitals would react.
However, I agree she should seek help.

don't know how to stop this behaviour;
Me and DP probably have a "good cop, bad cop" thing going on,
She smashed one of her tablets, the next day he ordered her one for next day delievery,
I take her tablet off her, he gives it back 2 hours later

*DP is a bit in denial about it. I've told him this is not normal whereas he believes "all children have tantrums and she doesnt need to see a dr"

Whatever else I'd going on with your daughter you and Dp arent on the same page with parenting attitudes. I dont think 'good cop, bad cop" is a good thing. There needs to be consistency otherwise a child will know who to play up to in my opinion and experience.
As for your DP saying children have tantrums, consistent parenting earlier on from the moment a child is a toddler and starts having tantrums woukd have eradicated this issue with the exception of blips that all kids do from time to time. The violence and destruction is not normal at that age.
In your case I would be asking for professional intervention and you and Dp looking at working together and having the same approach with your parenting skills.

I wonder if you have a child that needs a lot of natural daylight and that is why she likes sitting out with the neighbours (who sound like they are responding very calmly to her). If there are sensory issues going on, some people need to self- regulate by moving or having a particular environment. It is in recognition of this that the government’s guidelines about exercise were changed two weeks ago, as two parents whose children are autistic won in court in a hearing connected to their children’s medical needs during lockdown ( see point 15 of the current advice). Is there any way that you could take your daughter out on her own to a park early evening and let her experience rolling around, hanging from trees or railings etc?
Also, read about emotional regulation and low arousal techniques regarding children’s behaviour. It might help you to think about ‘managing stress’ rather than ‘managing behaviour’ and in your daughter’s case it does sound like there are significant sensory aspects to this. I have only become aware of the depth of my daughter’s sensory needs as she has entered puberty - she didn’t demonstrate any ‘typical’ autistic behaviours until secondary school when the increased social and emotional demands became overwhelming.

Your presence and your husbands presence and response could easily elongate any heightened behaviour. It’s not necessary to stay in the same room as a 9 year old who is after a reaction from an audience. Remove the audience in a quiet calm manner.

The only reason to be present is if the child is a serious risk to herself. Scalding, being run over etc. Then calm kind reengagement when things are calmer and reflection on what happened/how to move forward.

What triggers her? What are you saying no to and how are you saying no?

Start keeping a log of the behaviour, just bullet points of what triggers it and what she does. This will be good evidence further down the line.
Girls typically mask problems at school as they want to conform and appear well behaved.
Get school involved as well and ask what they can do to support you and for them to involve any other professionals.

Would second the physical need - a trampoline and sending her outside for a bounce during homework sessions really helped reset her!

My dd is amazingly clever, likes playing (or rather did at that age) with other kids and cooperated well at school but was violent to me and completely unreasonable- she's high functioning autistic. The good news is that if this is the case there's help she can get, and help with parenting her - my dd is now at university. Speak to your gp and demand a camhs referral, nobody has to put up with violence

Try the 123 parenting course, learn how to safely restrain and put some proper boundaries in place.

Children having aggressive tantrums are so quick to be labelled with ASD when really it is lack of boundaries and correction. She has to learn that sometimes you will hear no in life and the acceptable response isn't to throw your fists around in a paddy. She's plenty old enough to understand this.

I have autistic DC (same age group) severe enough to be in special school with added learning difficulty who manages not to punch me in the face when I tell them no.

Inevitably when you have a child who receives a diagnosis there is a lot of soul searching - is it me? Did it come from me?

I think it came from both of us in our case, but I definitely have some traits and I think some demand avoidant ones too. I mention this to highlight what happens for me - I become overwhelmed if people ask too many things/too many people asking for things at the same time/too many people talking at once/I’m focusing on something and someone asks me to do something else mid flow. Most often I just get a bit snappy, but I have been known to have a full ‘just bloody well leave me alone’ style meltdown. This was much more common during pregnancy/with small babies, and is in part the root of some issues I’ve had with DH and in laws. I just become overwhelmed and snap. Even as an adult it’s hard to control, must be really hard for a child

Have you considered a reward chart? She gets a star for every day she doesn’t get the rage.
No child has ever been rewarded into developing emotional maturity.

I know it sounds counter-intuitive to some of the parents on this thread (who have never dealt with these problems) but rewards and punishments do not work.
Children can only benefit from rewards and avoiding punishment if they are able to manage their emotional reactions in situations they find stressful. If they can't, you are just setting them up to fail.

Just a note about the 123 magic and restraint. They have their place but they are all about the parent controlling the child, they do nothing to teach the child how to manage themselves. The Therapeutic Parenting approach is so much better for you and your child.

@Bookoffacts : I don't know what people think GP will say. Re medical. Medication very unlikely for her age. What if she won't go to counselling, ( if and when you get a place)?
In the UK in order to access CAHMS or a Paediatrician you (usually) have to go via the GP. That is why the OP needs to take this to her GP. GPs and Paediatricians don't just prescribe drugs - in act to access most drugs you need to see a psychiatrist.

And Physical restraint is very controversial - and should only be used by those properly trained - as it can be extremely dangerous and is borderline abuse. A lot of schools deal with a child having a melt down - by moving others out of harms way.

But a melt down is always caused by triggers which proceed it. Although these can be micro triggers, which just build up.
As for the child refusing to go - she is 9, still young enough to have no choice. And to be honest if she is shouting/screaming and very disturbed when she gets there - then so much the better. They will see some of the behaviours that the OP is struggling with.

One thing that helped us when DS was 9 and went through a phase like this was giving him a magnesium supplement. He’s a very fussy eater and we worked out he was likely to be low in magnesium which could be a contributory factor to that type of behaviour. It wasn’t the only thing we did but it definitely seemed to help and pretty quickly. Similar to your DC OP, with perfect behaviour at school and in meltdown at home. Much better now a year on.

Nearly everything I wanted to say has been covered by PPs, but there's a few points I wanted to address, as an autistic woman who was diagnosed as an adult:

The "not getting" hurting other people: In secondary school, I used to repeatedly hit my friends over the head with books because I thought it was funny. Even though they would say "Ouch! That hurts!", I just didn't....get it. Amazing I had any friends at all, really. I don't know how you'd counter that, but not by appealing to her sense of empathy, which is clearly not there yet. My best guess is by putting the immutable boundary in place that you DO NOT hit, punch, manhandle, or even tickle. Autistic people LIKE rules and boundaries- once they get used to them. Deep down, she's probably feeling a bit shitty and weird and out of control that you're letting her do this kind of stuff to you.

Having just the one close friend in childhood is a pretty classic feature in autistic girls.

I agree with PPs that getting her out for some exercise when things look to be coming to a head could really help. She's obviously got a massive need to let stuff out physically.

And just to reiterate that, whether she's autistic or not, physically attacking her parents is completely unacceptable.

Your DD needs to be assessed by a psychologist.
She is functioning emotionally and socially at the level of a child aged about 4/5.
Academic functioning is a red herring here. It only shows she is intelligent (but that is evident from her threat to report you).

Her behaviour in school otoh holds some evidence as to her issues.
Holding the teacher's hand at the head of the line at age 6.
Arguing with a peer about who is 'top girl'.
Clashing with cousin of the same age.
Complaining of having no friends.
Low to no tolerance for frustration in her work.
Low to no tolerance or ability to solve problems in the conduct of her daily relationships (shown in her school problem and in her acting out at home).
Doesn't get jokes.
Low understanding of other people's physical reality - play fighting, tickling can get out of hand.
Plays with dolls with her little sister. (This is an issue in the context of problems getting on with and forming relationships with peers, not in and of itself).
Sits out peacefully with elderly neighbours. (Same as above - can cope with undemanding, predictable social situations).

You say you can see red flags appearing when she is about to kick off ('attitude developing', frustration evident if she loses a board game).
However, I think you could use other flags earlier as a hint that you need to provide an opportunity to connect with you:
Sucks her thumb. (This is again not a problem in and of itself).
Behaves like a baby needing attention. (Again not a problem per se, just in the general context).

When you see or hear these indications, a cuddling session or some other physical contact might head off a playfighting session later on that gets out of hand.

I agree with BlackEyedSusan's thoughts here, and her suggestions of sensory aids and attention to sensory needs not currently being met - a weighted blanket, physical touch - hug/cuddle/hands on her shoulders that she can come to rely on getting if she asks for it.

Imo, your response, more specifically your husband's response, to DD and the fact that she knows you are not on the same page in dealing with her behaviour, is actually a huge contributor to the problem that is at the base of this. There are some things you could try at home that would do no harm whatsoever, and might even result in some mitigation of the behaviour you are all suffering from.

The feeling that she, the child, is in charge, that there is no way to gauge where the boundaries are contributes to massive anxiety in children on the spectrum to any degree and also in NT children.

Your H needs to pull the finger out. You and he need to learn to parent together, consistently. No more 'good cop, bad cop'. To her this is like being a chicken living in a coop with holes large enough to admit a fox. It frightens her to be able to manipulate her father the way he is letting her. She is not feeling secure.

For him:
No more hiding in the bathroom when she is violent.
No more begging you for an easy life. No more 'FGS give her the tablet'. He has to get a grip on his own anxiety here.
No more replacing of broken things with new.
He has to back you up immediately if DD attacks you.

What he is doing now is 'permissive parenting' bordering on 'neglectful parenting', that comes from denial, which comes fear and maybe a little laziness or a tendency to avoid problems instead of dealing with them. The result is misery and anxiety in your DD, with violence and chaos as her way of communicating that (and a younger child who is having a very hard time, I guarantee it).

She needs him to 'stand up' to her. He can do this by adopting an authoritative style of parenting and backing you up when you parent this way.
This is not authoritarian parenting, but authoritative parenting:
www.parentingforbrain.com/authoritative-parenting/
It is appropriate for children with a lot of anxiety.
You can follow the tenets of therapeutic parenting alongside this style, or integrate all the elements. Each style features emotional responsiveness and solid demands/expectations based on the emotional age of the child which are not let slide.

She feels connected and safe in school, and can function in at least one area thanks to the structured environment and clearly defined 'walls' (rules and consequences, expectations set forth clearly, predictable routine every day). The aim in authoritative parenting is to establish a predictable social and emotional environment in which a child can always know where she stands. The aim in therapeutic parenting is to foster feelings of connection to the family, and physical and emotional safety. You don't need reward charts, and you can forget about the chronological age as a guide to your behaviour expectations. Your guide for responsiveness should be the emotional age.

Therapeutic parenting is not just for foster children or children with an attachment disorder, or traumatised children.
www.selftimeout.org/assets/ther-parenting-tools.pdf
Long, sorry.
This approach focuses on the voluntary 'self time out' as an opportunity for reflection. You could have a safe place for her that has a weighted blanket she could get in under.

Therapeutic parenting involves creating a highly structured environment, and not just in terms of a timetable. If you choose this approach, you will need to plan for every eventuality and put your planned responses in place every time specific situations crop up.

Sorry, very long post.

I have autistic DC (same age group) severe enough to be in special school with added learning difficulty who manages not to punch me in the face when I tell them no

You simply cannot generalise like this, and I'm fairly amazed that the parent of an autistic child seeks to do so.

Sorry, it's late and I haven't read the whole thread (sorry, I hate it when people do this but I'm knackered!) but this reminds me very strongly of my autistic son. He's 7 now but when he was younger I was bruised all over.
He's much better now and has learned some control over his emotions but even today, he came running up to me to punch me, for no good reason. He pulled his fist back at the last minute but I could tell that it cost him some effort.
I agree with limiting screen time.
He can also be absolutely delightful company, like a different child.
I wish you strength and hope you get the help you need.

Oh, and he always melts down when he's hungry. And most often when coming out of school (mainstream, at which there are mostly no problems - not now, obviously, as no school!). And when his routine changes. But every autistic person is different.

I think this was me at that age. I am undiagnosed but pretty sure I'm on the autistic spectrum. It would be helpful to have a diagnosis but as other posters have said, in the meantime, very solid boundaries from both parents is absolutely essential. It's very confusing for a young child to have confused parenting input, and for an autistic child doubly so which is probably why her behaviour has deteriorated as she's been at home more. I too was fine at school apart from the odd small blip, but lacked friends and was bullied.

"She is very hyperactive! Constantly doing cartwheels in the house and handstands, We've told her the garden is the place to do that but she doesnt listen.
She will purposely do a handstand whilst someone is sitting on the sofa right in their face.
She likes to sit VERY close to you and we've had to speak about personal space.
As in i will be on the edge of the sofa and she is practically pushing me to the edge to be right by me (I actually love this though),

She cant take a joke AT ALL. But dont know if she takes after me with this as I can be a person who takes things to literally.

Also when her uncle visits and is about to leave, she is very up and down with him.
He will say "right i'm off" and will try and give her a hug and a kiss and she will say "no!" So he will say okay and leave. And then she's having a meltdown about how she wants to give uncle a hug and a kiss and how she has to run out of the house to find him (we lock the doors), she's then trying to open the doors and looking in the blinds!"

OP, this is my autistic son to a tee.

Actually, he CAN take a joke but only with checking with me very firmly that I was actually joking. He'll have to check many, many times so obviously I don't make them much anymore.

Watching a film with him is a unique (and strangely lovely) experience. "Why does he do that? Why does he say that? Why are they doing that?".

Sorry, I was tired but not anymore, it seems! I just wanted to let you know that IF your daughter has an ASD diagnosis, it's really OK. Hard work but okay. This morning, I gave him his breakfast and then checked with him later that he was okay.
"No."
Me, concerned. "Oh, what's wrong?"
"My tummy is out of breath."
He was too full :) He recovered!

Jesus.
You need professional help urgently.
No parent should be putting up with violence from their child.

Possibly ADHD. You could try Young Minds website. Obviously i have no idea about your parenting but try not to get into arguments with her. Give her clear, concise instructions and if she starts disagreeing do not get into arguement with her....believe me, no parent ever wins an arguement with an angry child. Their anger escalates very quickly. You need help as soon as possible as you are both going to end up getting badly hurt. What you describe is more common than you'd imagine. Speak to your doctor and hopefully you will get a referral.

@perniciousdot Everyone is quick to shout autism but maybe she is just doing what she is getting away with. Not every violent child is autistic.

Have you thought that people are suggesting autism because they are joining up the dots in OPs posts? No, not every violent child is autistic, but perhaps remember that people posting here can see other "traits" that may indicate autism.