20 years in it’s dawned on me...

[Treatedlikeamaid]

That dh has a pattern of behaviour and I fall for it every time.
He gets very anxious and it feels like he copes by getting at me until I’m as anxious as he is. I need to keep positive so that I ive things and look after kids.
Only just dawned on me after he’s just done it again that he’s done it a zillion times - to the point where I couldn’t cope and couldn’t stop crying even in the doctors office.
I’ve been working hard on self esteem and encouraging myself to set up a teeny business which has had good reviews, hubby is all Victorian businessman, ‘what’s the plan ? It will never works etc etc. ‘There are several models which are working very well, so I’m sure there is room for me.
which means whatever I’d thought or planned goes out of my head and I feel stupid and ridiculous. I’m sure a few words of interest or even a ‘well done’ would be of help. It’s like he’s allowing me to do it, but if it gets busy he accuses me of the house being a tip.
Just could do with some encouragement, being a bit needy at the mo!
Thanks!,,,

Thanks thick fast 🙂

You don't 'want' to take the Kurds on holiday, you 'are' taking them away. Be as assertive as possible in how you really to yourself.

I'd suggest reading How He Gets into Her Head: The Mind of the Male Intimate Abuser www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1855942208/ref=cm_sw_r_em_apa_i_gxxAEbBTMRXTM?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

You keep referring to how you are anxious thinking about him and how a conversation with him swings you from happy to nervous.

This is not a coincidence. He's spent 20 years getting inside your head. He knows your better than you know yourself. Hence why he can manipulate you so well.

He's spent this time getting to this place on purpose. All the better to manipulate you!

Ask yourself, how well do you know his interior world? His hopes, dreams, worries, concerns, sources of shame? I'll guess you don't..... Why? He's made sure not to let you! He doesn't open up to you or let you in as it makes him vulnerable. It's more beneficial to know how to push your buttons.

Think back to the beginning of the relationship, did he lovingly let you talk and talk about everything which affected you? Great, he's got the lowdown on how to manipulate you. Cynical but I thought it might have done snippets of truth for you.

I explored these ideas when reading the book. Good luck!

Kids not Kurds 😊

Firstly, I think you are correct not to say anything to your partner about your recent epiphany until you have legal advice and a get out plan. Unless you are ready to act on what you are saying, it simply adds complexity at a time when your focus is getting the kids to see your mum and generating your own income.

Secondly, ‘oh no what can I do?’ as a response also puts the onus on you to tell him how to fix things, so that is also not hugely helpful - what will matter is actions (what he does) and of course how long he keeps it up for (just long enough to see off the immediate need to address your unhappiness or properly changing his behaviours?) and even if he does that, whether you can get over the way he has treated you for years. These are all things to address in good time.

The immediate issue is telling him that you plan to take your children to see your mum, I think? Not that you want to go, you are going. I think you should tell him this as soon as possible because the longer you do not, the more he does have some justified concern that you have made the arrangements without telling him. So you have a window to do this. Right now, you have not mentioned it as his job chat and settling back home has taken priority but you need to tell him. It is straightforward (tin hat time): my mum is deteriorating and I had the chance to get flights for x dates so they can see mum. This leaves us y time to go camping (or whatever) so can we organise that now? Focus on the fact that he needs to organise the camping if he wants family time. Any argument about taking the children to see your mum, just say you honestly do not wish to have an argument about that, as it would be ridiculous given her state of health, let’s have a look at the camping (or whatever). Rinse and repeat. If you don’t do this, you risk letting the flights and opportunity go because it is not going to get easier. Courage

He has you so well trained.

You are taking the kids to visit their unwell Grandmother, it's not a holiday tbh.

You have one Mum you want to do the right thing by her as this is your lost opportunity and how dare he even say/think his made up needs trump that?

I can understand why you are nervous about telling him you are going back. Right now he seems to be behaving himself, it’s the bait in the line. But you know he won’t react well to the news that you are taking the kids to Spain, that he will start shouting and refusing. You don’t want to upset the Apple cart. Because right now for a brief moment it’s ok.

However you have to tip that cart and tell him, not ask tell. It is inconceivable that he would try to deny the last chance his children have of experiencing some happy moments with their DG. But he will, because he doesn’t like the focus of your (and their) attention being away from him and his wants.

Stay strong, you can do this, not for yourself but for your mum and your kids. They deserve the chance to be together before she can’t remember who they are.

Thanks. Already missing mum and bro immensely. Cannot believe I’ve fallen for this sh#@t and for so long. 💐

Do not let the Spain quarantine stop you going. Stuck at home for 2 weeks after - so what!!

Camping will have to be the final week of the school holidays.

@Treatedlikeamaid Thanks. Already missing mum and bro immensely.

Of course you are. He's kept you away from the two people who love you most and who know you best. That's just so abusive. Stay strong and give your children a real family not his twisted version.

Re your Mum it's just occurred to me that in the elderly severe vitamin/nutritional deficiencies can and do exist. They can have a huge impact on cognitive abilities. When you go back you may be able to make a significant difference to her health with supplements and food. If you go the research I'm sure your bro will buy the necessaries. You might be very surprised how much better she gets.

@RandomMess what Spain quarantine??? I thought that wasn't happening?? God damn

I’d argue that the quarantine works in your favour, 2 weeks out of the summer holiday isn’t as bad as missing 2 weeks of school after October half term as you can’t guarantee that it won’t still be in force.

Very good point Zoflora.

I was thinking it could still be in place October but forgot about school

You could of course say you booked because of the quarantine. Perfect excuse!

Have you got your head round coercive control yet?

When you do, you realise there is no "finding the right words." The whole thing upthread of playing his words back to him is for your own mind only. It will have bugger all effect on him.

He already does all sorts of mad shit to keep you under his control. Things that hurt, you, him, the children, your finances. It isn't about words. Words cannot change anything about how he behaves. The only things that change outcomes for you are your actions

Words did not get you to your mum. All the words led to no.

Words did not get you your job. All the words led to no.

Stop agonising about words. They make no difference. Just do stuff.

Start looking for your new house/flat. You and the children could be so happy there.

Oh no, quarantine again. Where we are they start school on 11 aug. And we were going to return on 7th.
So I guess we can’t go after all.
Can just see reaction if I go for the week on my own.
This is too emotional.
Yesterday we talked his stuff. Fair enough he had a big interview.Today we did the same. I was astonished at myself for noticing, But I think I could have been a cardboard cut out.
This evening I’ve mentioned wanting to see mum for her mri, and how upset I was that she was getting Alzheimer’s and I was watching her fade and die ( suggested by you!) and was told not to be so dramatic, that she seems fine on face time, I have just been for a month ( queue stupid argument over 3 1/2 weeks or a month). My brother Is there, I need to get on with business, we are nearly broke etc. It all seemed so reasonable and That i was being so unreasonable. I Doubt myself and my actions again. - so glad you are here.
Researching more on coercive control, Tork. This is so much more subtle than most examples and checklists that without you guys I would still be doubting myself.
Thanks vodka, giving mum vitamins and good food, and researching just that.
Am so glad you are here.

He is a horrible person. I think you should consider actually getting a cardboard cutout of yourself and a recording of yourself saying “Yes dear” and just take the kids to your mothers and wait and see how long it is until he notices.
Please tell me how the kids have been since you returned.
My concerns about the kids involve the likelihood of repeated patterns. I’m sure you don’t want that for them. You need to get them out as soon as you can.

I remember you said you found Women’s Aid unhelpful.

The way I was referred was through

www.scottishwomensrightscentre.org.uk/

Rights of Women will also be able to advise you legally in broad terms, although you need a solicitor. The Family Law (Scotland) Act 2006 does make some provision for cohabiting couples, although less than if you were married. However, because you are not married, hallelujah, you do not need to reach agreement on the child arrangements before you can get divorced (can you imagine trying to do that with a controlling person??? A whole other nightmare. Mind you, the Scottish government are looking at the law around cohabitation and I really hope they do not decide to include that part for everyone’s sakes. But that is my bugbear and luckily does not affect you). Once I was referred, I found WA helpful. You need to say that you recognise your relationship is characterised by coercive control and that he has been violent in the past (putting you out of the car is physical violence) and that you are afraid of him. It is a hurdle to get over to see yourself in this position, but that is the truth. No shame attached to being in this position. Either Rights of Women or WA can refer you to a contact in the Citizen’s Advice Bureau who can advise financially, including if you are eligible for legal aid.

Returning on the 7th takes you to 21 August. Caring for a vulnerable and sick relative would count as essential travel. So you can go. Does your travel insurance cover you? Or are the European health card still valid? Arguably taking the children is also essential so they have a chance to see your mum. If your mum is in the Canaries or Balearic (sp?) islands, they are not subject to quarantine.

www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/spain

I think you said you can work on your job and business over there so you are in a fortunate position to be able to travel and still work. (I do not think you would be unreasonable to take the children, given the circumstances).

The problem is as someone said upthread, he has trained you well and you probably also have the experience like I did, that he is relentless in his arguments and makes everything unreasonable on his part seem reasonable so you doubt yourself.

You need to decide if this is an argument you want to pursue with him or if you want to focus your attention on getting out of this relationship so you can do what you want. If you want to put your foot down and say that you are going, and taking the children with you (make sure you have the passports in your possession), he will not get an emergency child welfare hearing before you are due to travel. However, you do need his consent to take the children out the country, so you need to ask him outright if he forbids it.

As we were in a legal process and then a court process, I always travel with a letter of permission from ex. The first time I was so stressed about asking, but he has not ever refused to give me it. If you don’t have the same surname as your children, you might get asked at passport control (we get asked every time by the same lady, it is a bit of a running joke now).

You ask

It’s a cycle of behaviour. How can I break it?

You can't change him.

Please remember the three Cs:
You didn't cause this.
You can't control it.
You can't cure it.

You can only change how yourespond and how you behave.

How very dare he tell you not to be so dramatic as your Mum "seems fine on face time"

If need be get your brother to phone up and state that there are legal documents that need to be signed and witnessed in person urgently so you have to go back - even if it's without the DC.

Him, him, him, him he ensures everything for you and the DC is about him.

Don't waste your breath talking to him. When he wants to talk about himself to you get up walk away "must you and work on my business now"

Stop communicating with him beyond being civil. No longer chats about anything.

Solicitor and get the ball rolling to force the sale of the house.

Yes, if you want to focus your mind about going to Spain (and/or leaving him for good), just think about whether you would rather be the sponge for his day-long chats or see your mum (be in your own place). You need to value your own time as he clearly does not.

regarding coercive control being more subtle, of course otherwise you would see it - but right now, he is stopping you (and the children) seeing your mother (their grandmother) which is right there on any list. The long talks are monopolising your perception (Biderman’s chart of coercion, linked up thread). It is actually more obvious once you can disentangle what is actually happening from his presentation of reasonableness.

I would still go and then quarantine on your return. Your mum is the priority here.

You could even argue that he should remain separate from you for two weeks (or permanently) on your return so that he can continue to work/look for work.

This time next year would you rather be regretting that you took the kids to see your mum and had to quarantine afterwards, or regretting that you didn’t take the chance for you and the kids to go and see her while she was still able to recognise them?

You definitely should take them and let the school know. You booked flights before the announcement and your mum is potentially critically ill. This time next year it may not be an option.

I actually think just don't discuss it with him and then when you are heading off look surprised and say 'but I told you we were going'

As a PP has said it makes zero difference what you say. You can not control his behaviour - a solicitor and to leave is the only way out. Just do e we had you have to and want to.

TBH I agree, a few days missing school after missing months???

It could work in your favour if your brother wants you to sign Power if Attorney forms for your mother, or something that your H may see himself being in a position to benefit from. Your brother may fake a conversation that your H can overhear where he expressly mentions that your mother wants to sign over control of her financial affairs to you (or something).... (all fictitious of course). I could see him suddenly being amenable to you taking the kids if he can then begin to control you and your mum’s dosh when you get back. (Of course your mum will have “changed her plans” by then.)