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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

20 years in it’s dawned on me...

994 replies

Treatedlikeamaid · 20/04/2020 11:57

That dh has a pattern of behaviour and I fall for it every time.
He gets very anxious and it feels like he copes by getting at me until I’m as anxious as he is. I need to keep positive so that I ive things and look after kids.
Only just dawned on me after he’s just done it again that he’s done it a zillion times - to the point where I couldn’t cope and couldn’t stop crying even in the doctors office.
I’ve been working hard on self esteem and encouraging myself to set up a teeny business which has had good reviews, hubby is all Victorian businessman, ‘what’s the plan ? It will never works etc etc. ‘There are several models which are working very well, so I’m sure there is room for me.
which means whatever I’d thought or planned goes out of my head and I feel stupid and ridiculous. I’m sure a few words of interest or even a ‘well done’ would be of help. It’s like he’s allowing me to do it, but if it gets busy he accuses me of the house being a tip.
Just could do with some encouragement, being a bit needy at the mo!
Thanks!,,,

OP posts:
Comtesse · 22/07/2020 06:59

But I think you said before you are still working whilst you are in Spain? In which case you are earning money even if he isn’t.

I wondered if you need a “punch list”? I used to work for a managing director who kept a little card (big as a bank card) in his suit pocket all times with the most important focus areas on. It was a small card on purpose so he couldn’t write much. If you have an overwhelming to do list then it can be intimidating and harder to focus. Anyway he called this the “punch list” and it kept him on top of £150M business so must have had something going for it. Should be about the most important things not just the most urgent. In fact I might go and write my own punch list right now!

It is a terrible thing to say but think you need to prepare for a phone call with your DP like the politicians prepared for Jeremy Paxman interviews. Get your stock phrases prepared (eg “yes there is a lot to do at home but mum’s problems can’t wait and I know you can manage the kids”) and just keep saying them.

Whether the kids come over the summer (it might well be a distraction) personally I think it would be good to book the flights for October half term now. Don’t be railroaded again on this.

Outofthevalley · 22/07/2020 07:17

Okay, the thing I wanted to say about your brother is that the scenario where you look after your mother in Spain instead of her going into a care home is not a viable one. Presuming you separate, you would lose primary residency of the children and you would have to pay your partner maintenance from what ever you earned in your business and job. There is also no guarantee that your partner would send the children over and you would unlikely be able to afford to go to court to get an order. On the other hand, the situation would benefit your brother as you would be there looking after your mum.

So you say that you asked your brother for lawyer’s details? Did he give you them? In other words, do you have the name of a lawyer recommended?

Did your brother offer any practical ideas and support for getting your own flat etc in the U.K.?

Because if not, it sounds a bit like he is another man who is going to give you his opinions and then leave you feeling like you are falling short. It really is not helpful to berate victims of abuse for failing to leave without offering concrete support and help for them to do so. If your brother has offered you concrete, viable help and support in the U.K., follow up on it. If not, then okay, his words simply more bluntly tell you what you already know. But they do so in a way which suggests you are failing, when you are not. The reason controlling men use the tactics they do is because they work.

But the good news is that you are beginning to see that and you said yourself before the conversation with your brother than things need to change. You are going to be able to manage this but you will need nerves of steel. It is a case of feel the anxiety and plough on through regardless.

So with my previous list of priorities, do you and your brother have a plan for your mum? Even as simple as - can she manage to September/October and you both come out again?

Do you have space to get on with your job amidst all this? If you go back to the U.K., you are going to have to remind your partner this is your only source of income and that you cannot be doing all the domestic stuff 24/7. He is still going to have to take the children to buy school uniform etc. You simply will not be available as you need to work. He has told you how important money is, so that should be clear to him.

Children - I think if he won’t agree to send them to Spain, then the only choice is to make sure that you have flights booked for all of you in autumn (I mean, you and the children, because your partner will be looking for a job and taking his well-earned break from domestic duties (sarcasm) and given that he has put obstacles in your way previously, there is no reason he gets to come). Ask your brother to pay for the flights if you need to. Be prepared to go to court and ask for an order to take them if your partner refuses. There is no court which would not allow you to take your children to see your deteriorating mother overseas. (A good way to cut through the emotional manipulation is to think in terms of what the law allows you to do).

It is very, very important not to take on the burden of guilt and apologetic persona that he is trying to force you to. There is absolutely nothing unreasonable in staying in Spain an extra couple of weeks to care for and make plans for your mother, given her illness. He is the other responsible parent, looking after the children is his job too. You need to be very, very clear in your own head about this and prepared to push back on any suggestion you have been unreasonable. (I do think, however, there is a point that the longer you stay, the more you risk losing your position as primary carer in legal terms, should you separate any time soon; however, it does not seem to me that separation is on his agenda, even if it may be on yours. Nonetheless, it might help to think about the situation in legal terms to guide what you do, as the law is not emotional).

I think it is very, very important to have a plan. Think about your plan as an anchor. It is going to hold you firm in a storm (and he will whip up a storm). Know what you want to achieve. If and when you go back to the U.K., you are not going to be his whipping boy, you are going back to achieve things on your plan.

I remember my lawyer saying to me very early on I needed to develop a thicker skin. She was right, but it is not that easy. I preferred to think of it as I needed to put on my tin hat (as in the World War One type, not the tin foil ones) and plough on through, regardless of what came at me.

RandomMess · 22/07/2020 08:19

OMG that phone call with DP is it so transparent that he just wants you back to whip and control you!!!

"Could" go visit in October - but I'll say we can't afford it so that it doesn't happen.

Would your Mum pay for flights for the DC to come over now, will she pay for all food etc whilst they are there? If so it will save P money and he will get his break and the DC won't have a boring summer...

I do not believe he is spending more than 5 hours per day job hunting- he has plenty of time to cook food, the DC do not need looking after or entertaining at their ages - pretty sure they make their own breakfast too and can do a lunch?

He is a lying manipulative toad!!!

It is far more cost effective for you to stay out there a while longer until it is sorted rather than fly backwards and forwards.

He is so unreasonable it's shocking!! Why is he so intent on not letting the DC come over when on the same breath he can't cope, is too tired and they should have a holiday as it's sooo boring for them? It is a stick to beat you with nothing else.

I don't even believe your MIL said that about school uniforms, she probably suggested he should sort it!

Angry
Vodkacranberryplease · 22/07/2020 08:58

he's not going to let those kids come over for August! They would be in grave danger of having fun as would you! And that will not do, he would also have no excuses and nothing to moan about. No. He wants you all to be completely miserable and 'the kids can have a boring summer' is his comfort zone. They always have a boring summer though don't they? Thanks to him. You all do. Having nothing, doing nothing, being nothing - it's just who he is.

Those poor kids. They didn't ask for this. I can't even begin to imagine about how this is affecting them, how they must see the world. A boring life when their friends go places even if they have no money. No money, no dreams and watching their dad be abusive and knowing it. Learning that mummy's stay no matter what. Learning that life is grey and boring and hopeless.

Vodkacranberryplease · 22/07/2020 09:40

As @Outofthevalley has talked about legally you are entering a problem area too. He could decide to separate and go for primary care - with the state benefits and then you are paying him, and he does what he does already. Legally he could have a case.

Financially he could get paid for doing what you do, by the state. I think to a man like him that's appealing if he can sell it to himself as 'deserted husband battles bravely on being father of the year'

So I think that's the other reason those children are going nowhere.

One very hard lesson I've learnt over the years is that while you are doing nothing they aren't. Inertia simply means that things you can't see or control are happening TO you and the outcome is not good.

He's got his new strategy to control you (being 'reasonable') and when he works out you are g buying it he will go straight to his plan B. And trust me he does have a plan b.

Treatedlikeamaid · 22/07/2020 09:45

Thanks, SO MUCH.
First off, I’m going back tomorrow. Dp asking what I need to do still. And I feel for kids stuck in grey house with grey depressed dad. Not too happy With myself - I’ve spent lot of time being anxious about dp. When It’s mum that’s counts ffs. He still hasn’t answered Regarding going camping and I Suspect it won’t happen. I know if I challenge him re binging kids here he will argue relentlessly. The thought exhausts and frightens me, then I’m disappointed in myself.

Reign, you are right. We can never plan hols as he is always too busy, So For hols, I’ll do research, he’ll poo poo it, and at the last minute he’ll find somewhere in Devon.last year I was all excited to bring kids to fiestas but no, he works hard etc and Devon it was.The second promised week never happened. But this is different. I will book 3 tickets and say I have to sign something and say he can book his own. This Makes me incredibly anxious. He will say we have no money, I have shamefacedly borrowed some off mum for fares.
Thanks out of. The emotional manipulation is really horrible to read I’m doubting myself again, so this is great to read. I have been too wimpy to say anything stronger than,’well you were being made redundant’. This was in Feb, and mum had no electricity for a while and I was frantic to get hold of her and what was I thinking, staying behind? Bro had to go,and obv wasn’t impressed. He’s said before about seeing mum more.

it sounds a bit like he is another man who is going to give you his opinions and then leave you feeling like you are falling short But they do so in a way which suggests you are failing, when you are not Really thanks for this. That’s exactly what I was feeling, and then I get confused as to why I’m so wimpy.
I am adding ‘feel the anxiety and plough on regardless’ to my mn post it note collection!
I will talk to a solicitor when I get back and start finding out my rights. Yes! Being definite! At last!
Bro will say here as long as poss, then a carer. Then, well, every chance I get.
I love your idea of a plan as an anchor. On a punch list- thanks comtesse, that’s a great idea.
You are right, On return, I will be made as anxious as possible, pressured to sell loads, and find myself unable to think and waste time dragging myself out of depression and anxiety and therefore not knowing where to focus. Then blame My self for being crap. At least I know this now. I need to keep the feeling of being independent somehow.

OP posts:
Vodkacranberryplease · 22/07/2020 09:56

Gosh you really do need out of this pronto Flowers

A solicitor is a great idea and the kids and you coming back fantastic! As for the camping... well up to you but if you have to cook and it's raining do you really want to?

Justtryingtobehelpful · 22/07/2020 09:57

Good to hear the fighting talk and learn you've booked the flights.
This website is meant to be very good for advice
rightsofwomen.org.uk/

Treatedlikeamaid · 22/07/2020 10:33

Vodka you are right. We never do anything. There’s always a reason why not.
Bro currently being all efficient sorting banks, buying paint etc.
Feeling worse and worse - I’m rushing back to dp who can’t cope. He has had a rough ride, is writing some papers he needs to get in before competitors, was critically ill 2 years ago, held it together with bullying boss and had awful redundancy experience earlier this year.. I’ve got mum saying over and over again,‘I’m glad you’re here’ . bro is doing useful stuff while I am an emotional puddle of anxiety.
So anxious at bringing kids over. Dp will say I need to do business and be very persuasive and all I’m doing is feeling anxious and leaning on you guys.
I can’t focus on business. Mum leant me 2k and I feel awful cashing it coz she doesn’t remember. HOW ado I get out of this state? It’s ridiculous.

OP posts:
Treatedlikeamaid · 22/07/2020 10:37

And no, I hate camping with bored teenager and miserable dp. Last time was a disaster. He will say I can’t go because I need to do business. I’m so anxious it’s ridiculous. Why does it feel so monumentous.
I think cos am finally realising thanks to you and bro, that it’s a lot worse than I thought. Am being a wimp. Got to change my mindset.

OP posts:
Treatedlikeamaid · 22/07/2020 10:38

He’ll also put camping off till it’s a crap four days in the rain.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 22/07/2020 10:50

Well the DC holiday with you in Spain so he can concentrate on work and then he takes them camping without you so that you can concentrate on your work/business...

Justtryingtobehelpful · 22/07/2020 11:42

Agree, keep the booking in Oct but also book to go back in a week's time but take the kids.
They can hang out with their DGM while you work in the day then you can ask relax together in the evening. DB can spend some quality time with them too.
'D'P can focus on his work and organise a camping trip for the end of the summer holidays.
You can send them back for their camping holiday then return to the UK as they return from their camping trip.
Done! the teenagers have had two different holidays with each parent over the summer plus seen extended family. They will definitely not be bored. And both of you and your partner have had time alone to focus on whatever admin etc you need to do for work.
As I said already just book the flights before you go home to come immediately back in like a week's time. you're an adult with money and you can make decisions for yourself and your children without consulting him on the micro details. he's got a good number of weeks to get organised but his camping trip and make it as spectacular as he wants. you do not need to go on the camping trip because you will have already spent your time with them in Spain and done your bit for the family. gettin already have organised them to return a week before you return to the UK so that then the onus is on him to organise his amazing camping that he keeps banging on about. If he doesn't organise it, whatever, the children know that that was the plan and at least you have done your bit by taking them on a lovely holiday to Spain.

Vodkacranberryplease · 22/07/2020 11:53

Ugh. Camping. Now how did I know it would be miserable?

Ok... it is that bad. I find the only way I can motivate myself to do the really hard stuff is by realising I HAVE to. This is where you almost are and if you can get there then you will find the strength and clarity to break free.

Opening your eyes and seeing what IS there instead of what you want to be there is the only way out. Getting angry, realising how shit it is (and oh it's really shit) and realising that this man is the cause of that shit.

PP have said about your bro being another man telling you what to do etc. But I don't agree - he's kept quiet for years. Tiptoeing around this is enabling it. If you want to go all girl power and decide to not do what someone tells you to do then focus that on your 'D' P rather than your loving brother who is rightly upset at watching his sis destroy her life.

You are someone with imagination, and joy. Who talks about fiestas and nights out. But right now your dementor of a partner is sucking every ounce of life out of you.

RandomMess · 22/07/2020 11:54

Absolutely agree with Just.

Your Mum has given you the money and is desperate to spend time with the DC he has no argument against that!! You will still be working whilst out there, he won't have the DC to look after and it isn't costing him money!

Whatever argument he comes up with just repeat "we will have to agree to disagree on that, the DC are coming to Spain with me if you want a family holiday you sort it"

You can get their school stuff sorted before you go back to Spain so he can STFU about that too.

RandomMess · 22/07/2020 11:56

Any whinging about you and DC going back to Spain...

"My Mum May not even know who they are by October, how dare you deny the DC time with their Grandmother"

ThickFast · 22/07/2020 11:59

How are you doing now? It sounds overwhelming for you.

Comtesse · 22/07/2020 12:30

One thing at a time. Pow pow pow. Work on the punch list. Use your mum’s money for kids travel - completely justified. Camping in the rain - bugger off! He really is a dementor isn’t he? And you are not allowed to come either - tin pot hitler dementor what’s more. Calm yourself down OP and do one thing at a time. Flowers

Treatedlikeamaid · 22/07/2020 14:33

Thanks. Ridiculously scared of telling him. Exhausting.

OP posts:
Justtryingtobehelpful · 22/07/2020 14:53

The more you stand your ground, the easier it becomes. What's the worst that could happen?

  • he gets angry? That's his to own. Imagine yourself in a bubble. Anything from the outside doesn't affect you. You're inside with your own feelings, thoughts and ideas. Everything else bounces off the outside. His feelings are his feelings. You are not responsible for his feelings. They are for him to deal with on his own.
  • shout at you? Tell him firmly that you refuse to be spoken to like that, you state you will end the conversation here and only begin again when he's calm. Push it back on him - you seem angry right now, so I'm going to leave to give you time to compare yourself. We can speak again when you're calm.
  • manipulate you emotionally? Remain in your bubble. You've got your plan to anchor you. Remember your punch card list of MIT - Most Important Things to focus on. Repeatedly punch him with your MIT

Imagine your own funeral. It's a Buddhist visualisation. It's give you a sense of motivation as you will feel how fleeing life is in the grand scheme of things. Remember, this process of about curating the life you want for you and your DCs.

If in doubt, remember when your DD said to you - that's abusive, we learnt about it in school..... It's already affecting them. Even they can see him for what he is.... I suspect they'll be your silent cheerleaders 😁

Focus on saying the first word. It'll flow from there.....

ThickFast · 22/07/2020 14:57

Just as an aside, that’s great that your DD is learning things like that on school.

Treatedlikeamaid · 22/07/2020 15:22

Nope, not coming back. Just talked to dp who is really cross. He said we’d agreed To come back in October. He’s holding the fort. He doesn’t know if I realise we don’t have time for fucking holidays we have to get jobs. I’m not thinking. I have to get business going. He gets crosser and crosser - and he’s right, I am being lazy and we need to earn or we’ll lose the house. I get really small and just say ok. Ok. To stop him going on, then I said I have to go.
Thanks all. I am being stupid And unrealistic and obv need to focus. And I am behind schedule for business and really need to up my self belief.
Imagining myself Free. It gives me strength, surprisingly!

OP posts:
RandomMess · 22/07/2020 15:37

You being in Spain isn't a holiday and you can work on your business whilst out there?
Your Mum is sinking into dementia she wants to see the DC.

Tell him you want to sell the house and buy something cheaper... will be the ideal time to part ways.

He is not your boss it isn't his decision.

SadAngry

Outofthevalley · 22/07/2020 15:52

I am glad you are imagining yourself free. However difficult it seems now, that thought is amazing because it means you realise that you are not free now. It will give you the motivation to become free:

Vodkacranberryplease · 22/07/2020 16:01

Why doesnt the lazy prick get a fucking job then? You do realise that he wont let you come back ever dont you? And that if what you do relies on him letting you then you have no way out.

Take a breath, talk to a solicitor, & then when you have a better idea of your rights take the kids & go. Dont even discuss this any more. Just move out - whether thats via Spain for two weeks & then back to a rented flat, does it even matter any more?

Its clear to me this has had a profound emotional effect on you & you are frozen with fear. I dont know how you will become un frozen but this is just appalling. He really believes his own stories & to him its a matter of (ego) life & death. You can never discuss, reason, force, manipulate or anything else these people to change or to accomodate you.

My ex business partner was exactly the same. With a money trigger, & arrogance, & lazy as fuck. Youre blaming this on yourself being weak, but I can catagorically tell you that even being not weak, & fighting tooth & nail got me nowhere. The only thing that worked was a solicitor, & an accomplice - in your case your brother.