How do you reconcile someone being capable of being aggressive/violent with them being a "nice" person.

[GilbertMarkham]

A short while ago I posted a thread asking for opinions on my dh, who was violent towards me (flung me, held me down, no hitting) about 14 yrs ago during a cycle of severe arguments, and who had not repeated such behaviour until he "loomed" over me/squared up to recently during a bad argument.

I'm looking into separation and trying to get my head around everything - the latter being v important to me in choosing a course and sticking to it.

The thing is my DH is - quite honestly - a nice/good person 99% of the time. He is, and I'm not deluded in the way most MNers will believe an op to be when they say this, a good father who takes as much strain off me as he can in spite of having a v demanding job and has since our DD was born.

He is on the while very kind - just one example off the top.of my head is that, when my sister was arguing a lot with her DH and it looked like he was going to obstruct her from going on a trip (marathon and sightseeing) and money was ab issue, he instantly looked troubled and said 'how much does she need, we'll give it to her".

How do I reconcile all the good parts of his character (the majority) with what he did, the line he crossed years ago, and was toeing up to again recently?

There are many situations where one violent incident would, to me, sound like a dealbreaker. For me personally, what you have described would probably not be a dealbreaker, though I completely respect the fact that some people feel differently about that.

As you have said that lack of sex and you not being affectionate are issues that you would have to work on sooner or later in any relationship, I think you’re right in feeling that those in themselves are not reasons for leaving. Also, as you say, having a young child who sleeps badly is putting you both under huge strain at the moment. Would it be affordable to get some more childcare, e.g. for part of the time at weekends, so that even though you’re both not getting enough sleep, you’d have some chance to rest and relax in the daytime?

You said don't be a bully, using your size against someone smaller and weaker.

Was that what he was consciously doing? or does he just happen to be someone in a bigger body than you?

@OPTIMUMMY

Thank you for your measured post.

Thing is, he's not happy with the lack of sex life and affection. I think those would be his main issues (aside from the strain of having a poor sleeper, through-going toddler on top of a v demanding, stressful job).

I am indifferent to the lack of sex life and affection. So what he sees as a problem/dysfunctional in our relationship, I am not bothered by .. and I suppose that produces frustration and annoyance all by itself.

I'm aware it's not healthy but from some threads on here, it doesn't sound like I'm alone in the situation.

And quite honestly I think I could separate/divorce, (if I'm lucky) meet a nice man I fancy ... And I would end up exactly the same with him after a certain period of time.

Was that what he was consciously doing? or does he just happen to be someone in a bigger body than you?

When is MN going to add an eye rolling icon.

Would it be affordable to get some more childcare, e.g. for part of the time at weekends, so that even though you’re both not getting enough sleep, you’d have some chance to rest and relax in the daytime?

It has been discussed but we haven't followed through on it for various reasons.

It would definitely be a necessity of we decide not to separate and try to resolve our issues; so we can have some date nights or whatever.

I don't know why you'd roll your eyes at that tbh. You only want responses that are what you want to hear!

I do think people underestimate the impact stress can have. I think you can cope with a stressful work life if there’s relief from it at home, but if there’s stress in every area of a person’s life it will spill out and manifest itself somehow - probably through the arguing, it doesn’t excuse the behaviour but if you both want to work on it then there would need to be some practical changes. Equally if you weren’t sleep deprived and stressed yourself then you probably wouldn’t end up biting when it seems like an argument is brewing. Could you both work on simple things to make each other’s lives easier - little acts of kindness each day? Try working on ways you can both de-escalate when tensions are high? This is assuming you decide you want to work on things.

I don't think the incident 14 years ago is relevant at all. My ex FIL slapped his wife one time..after he discovered she was having an affair.

I wouldnt say it's good behaviour but I wouldng judge a man or woman harshly for slapping someone upon the discovery of an affair.

I suppose s slap is, however, the most minimal form of violence. It may produce a mark but is unlikely to harm/cause damage. Not to say that it's impossible, esp when done by a man.

My DH did not slap me. He hold me down one time and another time, during the argument I've outlined, flung me. He flung me at/onto a bed, I was newly moved into my home, renovating, broke and had no headboard yet so I landed again.the bed but also to some extent against the wall. I don't know how hard be thought he'd flung me or intended to fling me but it was crash test dummy time for me.

Of I give him the benefit of the doubt, I'll say he chose the direction of the bed to flung me because he didn't intend to cause injury, did t think he'd done it hard emiug for me to not the wall as well and didn't appreciate his own strength.

He is extremely strong, we were robbed in Barcelona once and he caught the thief on a bike and threw it and the thief against fencing in milliseconds.

While giving h the benefit of the doubt (within his decision to be violent) it doesn't change the fact that I was lucky that my littlee crash test dummy impression didnt result in a back, neck or head injury.

At the time I minimised it, swept it under the carpet, blamed myself for provoking him etc. Over the years my perspective had changed and it has bothered me more and more.

The recent argument when he loomed I ed me, and my subsequent thread, got lots of posts that crystallised that.

My ex was like this. I still miss him sometimes but his anger scared me and it ruined my overall trust in him. I would follow your own advice and leave before he goes one step too far. Someone can be a ‘nice’ person and lose control but that doesn’t mean you must put up with it because that person can be nice. Your life matters more.

Could I also point out that is doesn’t matter that he flung you on the bed. He used his physical advantage to disempower you. My ex used to pick me up agains my will, etc. It doesn’t work in a real, meaningful relationship with mutual respect. I wouldn’t even use my physical strength against my child, let alone my partner.

To me it sounds like it bothers you more and more because you are fixating on it instead of focusing on the real and normal issues in your relationships that often lead to relationships ending.

Your behaviour at the time would provoke a lot of people, that's fact. I am not saying that you deserved it. I am saying that in a court of law provocation is considered a mitigating circumstance. Would what you have said have the potential to cause a reasonable person to lose control? The truth is that yes it easily could.

I'm not a violent person but if I was seeing someone and they taunted me that they cheated on me and then said they'd do it again I couldn't be 100% sure that I wouldn't hit them or act aggressively by pushing them onto a bed for example. Yes I know I wouldn't be as strong as him but it's still the same reaction.

If we then got back together and 14 years later he was holding it against me and saying I was capable of aggressive violent behaviour and leaving out the context of what happened way back then saying he minimised it, swept it under the carpet and had blamed himself for provoking me i'd think wtf, it would be kind of heading towards gaslighting tbh to leave the very very important context out of it!

To me it sounds like it bothers you more and more because you are fixating on it instead of focusing on the real and normal issues in your relationships that often lead to relationships ending.

I've been bothered more and more by it for several reains, ofc the top.of my head

• I got older, I got more perspective/sense
• we broke up for nearly 3 yrs and with the detachment from him & the relationship, I got more perspective
• I found MN and read people's opinions on issues like this
• I read books like Lundy Bancroft
• I told more people about it and got their opinions, when I was younger it was wrapped up with embarrassment and pride

That is not to say there are real and normal issues in our relationship; the fact we've become like mates/housemates/siblings of something and could ever recover from that and get back to romantic/sexual partners.

Also sorry I forgot to say the crucial.readon that I've been thinking about it recently is that he chose to square up to me during an argument, being physically intimidating.

to leave the very very important context out of it!

And where have I left the context out of it. Page one of this thread I outlined it.

You're stating the context but you seem to be detached completely from it and how the reaction occured because of it.

Sorry one don't fully catch what you were saying there; acknowledging the context while also saying (truthfully) that you minimised, swept it under the carpet and blamed yourself - are not mutually exclusive.

My behaviour in the context was provocative, his behaviour in response was unacceptable and potentially dangerous, I did not end the relationship at the time because I did not process the unacceptability of it due to minimisation, carpet sweeping, and excusing him by blaming myself.

Could you both work on simple things to make each other’s lives easier - little acts of kindness each day? Try working on ways you can both de-escalate when tensions are high? This is assuming you decide you want to work on things

Definitely worth trying if we continue the marriage.

Withdrawing affection and sex from your partner is abusive
Baiting them to get a reaction or not letting them leave an argument is abusive
Being overly critical of everything your partner does is abusive
Saying you forgive somebody and then repeatedly bringing the issue up again to excuse your subsequent feelings or behaviour is abusive
I think there's a level of gaslighting to. He's told you he is feeling rejected, hurt, unloved, etc. And you are trying to convince him he's the one who needs help.

We need Lundy Bancroft to write a "why does she do that?"

It was of course potentially dangerous, but happened after extreme provocation.
Provocation in the context of the law is "when a person is considered to have committed a criminal act partly because of a preceding set of events that might cause a reasonable person to lose self control".

A lot of very reasonable men and women would have reacted the way he reacted. Normal, non violent, reasonable people.

You said you minimised, swept it under the carpet and blamed yourself at the time. It's also likely that part of the reason he forgave you and what you said to him was because he was extremely ashamed of himself for acting aggressively so he did some minimising, carpet sweeping and blaming himself too!!

If a friend came to me and told me they split with their partner after an incident like that I would absolutely support their decision to leave a relationship once there had been an aggressive incident, however I absolutely wouldn't consider him to be abusive or necessarily aggressive or violent based on that incident when reacting angrily like that would be a very human reaction.

Also just to add, if he had got 'help' after the incident 14 years ago he certainly wouldn't have fit the normal criteria for the type of men who need help for stuff like that. Even a therapist (while absolutely not condoning violence) would see how that situation might have occured. It would be very hard to actually get help which would stop someone reacting in anger to a massively provocative incident like that which isn't likely to happen to often.

I genuinely don't think the therapist would see the two incidents as related at all.

And if had a habit of reacting angrily and aggressively (which I don't think it sounds like he does) one of the main pieces of advice he would be given would be to try to end the argument before it escalates, leave the room if you must, leave the house if that doesn't work. Just get away.

It sounds like he would be willing to do that, as he wanted to put an end to the argument..so in this case it would be you who actually needed to do the work on yourself and to get help to stop yourself from continuing arguments, not him.

Kind of reminds me a bit of the recent tapes of Johnny Depp and his wife, where he said if they argued he'd have to leave the room or the house, and she tried to make out he was a pussy for not being able to take it!

OP, I don't think you love him and he has a right to end the marriage due to no affection and lack of sex. I don't agree it's normal or common in relationships and if you always go off sex a year or so into a relationship then you might need to look into why that is.

I would leave if you feel he is intimidating towards you..listen to your instinct.

The pair of you sound as if you are caught in a toxic dynamic.

You goaded him with your infidelity 14 years ago until he snapped - at which point he pushed and held you down. No excuse for violence but I can see how it happened.

Then you have pushed and pushed for an argument you were determined to have, despite him asking you to walk away because you were both sleep deprived. However you insisted on pressing the buttons, at which point he's squared up to get you to back off. Again he shouldn't have done it, but why were you so determined to have the argument at all costs?

He does need help with controlling his responses. Pushing, holding people down and squaring up are unacceptable behaviours when arguing. But you sound as if you know exactly what his triggers are and go at them relentlessly until they flare.

I find it interesting that you are focusing on his lack of action to look for a counsellor, rather than your own part in this. Have you considered that perhaps one of the reasons he's not done anything is because he doesn't want you to stay and try and work things out? Your comments about sex and affection are telling; that you'd probably be like this in any other LTR - which is why you're invested in working things out in this one. Whereas he might feel that he deserves more than a relationship with someone whose heart isn't in it, that the prospect of 'duty' sex and the odd dry kiss and limp hug from a partner who isn't interested is pretty off-putting.

Perhaps he recognises that the two of you are a bad combination together and that calling it a day would be the most sensible and healthy outcome for all concerned including your child?

You need to look at the whole picture here, which is that the pair of you seem to bring out the worst behaviours in each other.

What he is or what he is not doesn’t matter.

If you think you no longer want a relationship with him, you are perfectly entitled to leave, no excuse needed. You are not happy, that’s enough.