How do you reconcile someone being capable of being aggressive/violent with them being a "nice" person.

[GilbertMarkham]

A short while ago I posted a thread asking for opinions on my dh, who was violent towards me (flung me, held me down, no hitting) about 14 yrs ago during a cycle of severe arguments, and who had not repeated such behaviour until he "loomed" over me/squared up to recently during a bad argument.

I'm looking into separation and trying to get my head around everything - the latter being v important to me in choosing a course and sticking to it.

The thing is my DH is - quite honestly - a nice/good person 99% of the time. He is, and I'm not deluded in the way most MNers will believe an op to be when they say this, a good father who takes as much strain off me as he can in spite of having a v demanding job and has since our DD was born.

He is on the while very kind - just one example off the top.of my head is that, when my sister was arguing a lot with her DH and it looked like he was going to obstruct her from going on a trip (marathon and sightseeing) and money was ab issue, he instantly looked troubled and said 'how much does she need, we'll give it to her".

How do I reconcile all the good parts of his character (the majority) with what he did, the line he crossed years ago, and was toeing up to again recently?

I think you’re being admirably honest about all that’s happened. Sorry to hear you are in this difficult situation.

I cannot think of anything more hurtful or enraging for anyone in a relationship to hear than their partner saying that they cheated on them, lied about it, and would do it again, and all this being said not in an apologetic way but in a goady way. I’m not in any way an expert on such matters, so maybe I’m wrong about this, but my guess would be that if he had a tendency to be dangerously violent, then he would have hit you at that point. Holding you down was obviously wrong, but the fact that it was the one incident, 14 years ago, and that it was only when he was hurt and goaded in the extreme, makes me think it is unlikely that it would happen again or that something worse would happen.

I remember a friend telling me that her mother at one point was having to provide 24-hour care for my friend’s sister, who was extremely ill and kept moaning about how ill she was (very understandably - she really was in terrible suffering). My friend’s mum was extremely exhausted and stressed and at one point slapped her ill daughter, which my friend said is completely out of character. I have met her mum, who is very sweet. What I’m saying is that everyone has their limits, and in an extreme situation, an incident can occur as a one-off. However, I’m not necessarily saying you should stay with him. If you did stay, I think it would need to be on the condition that he takes steps to work on himself and ensure that nothing like that, or the “looming”, ever happens again.

I guess one thing to think about is whether you would be able to avoid goady behaviour in the future (in all honesty, your reaction to the Santa’s grotto incident does sound very provoking), and whether you’d be willing to work on yourself to avoid this. This is absolutely not to victim blame - violence and “looming” are never justified - but it sounds like one of the things to think about in this very complex situation.

Just to be clear - even if he committed to taking steps to work on himself, I’m not saying you should stay with him if you don’t want to.

@teaandcake246

Thanks for your post, you've been very moderate and empathetic in your post.

He pushed/flung me after I said that. The holding down was either before that or during another argument at that time. There was a period when we were arguing regularly after the stag do.

He pushed/flung me at a bed so I presume he thought it was unlikely to result in an injury (as much as you think when you've lost your temper and decided to be violent).

(After that period we stopped arguing like that and didn't again during the rest of the relationship, until we broke up for three years).

Its not a defence but I think that what I expressed very poorly was that the stag do incident (which involved some lying) had hurt and angered me do badly that I would have ended the relationship if I hadn't done something very shitty myself by that point, that I was far from perfect myself. Of course, it was not a good way or time to express that and there was an element of malice in it.

The argument 14 years ago sounded like you behaved in an extremely goading and taunting way. That kind of provocation can cause a generally non violent non abusive person to lose it.
I mean what would you have done if he had similar to you? You might have lunged yourself at him and hit him. By your own admission you sounded very OTT back then so I would imagine you would have responded far more aggressively if he had goaded you like that!

No one is saying it's an excuse, but it's part of the explanation. In court for example a man who hit a woman in similar circumstances would almost certainly be treated less harshly than a man who just attacks without any provocation.
Again i'm not saying it's an excuse, but it's an explanation.

It's hard to tell with the most recent incident, women are often just as angry as men when there's an argument but come across as less scary or intimidating because our voices are softer, we're not physically as big as them so are less threatening.

It seems like you need to come to a decision about what to do..but it's like you're looking for someone to blame in this, like one party has to be the wrong one for you to split up so that you can for example tell yourself well he was a violent man so it's ok to split up. Sometimes there isn't a bad guy. You're just not meant to be and the relationship has run its course!

Apologies if I'm wrong, but are you doing some kind of course? Counselling, psychology.

Maybe it's me but you don't 'sound' distressed, more interested. Hope that makes sense

I don’t know if this helps but abuse ongoing is a pattern or cycle isn’t it?

There is an underlying element of control going on all the time.

I think that I could forgive a one off mild aggressive episode. Or not forgive, that is the wrong word. I think that I could see the whole other good person in context and mag well stay in the marriage. However I’d have to tell a few people, get it out there, get perspective, check my own judgement as it would be easy to be blinded to ongoing subtle control.

I think that sometimes good people can lose control and whilst it doesn’t excuse or justify his behaviour it isn’t the same as someone who deliberately chooses to abuse someone. Do you believe he genuinely is appalled at himself? A good person would be and would accept that the two of you together are not a good combination- and I don’t mean that in a way to blame you, just that the way in which you interact with each other when annoyed results in him turning into someone neither of you likes and could potentially escalate. In which case I’d say it’s better that you separate and try to parent amicably. It sounds like the relationship has already run it’s course so maybe by admitting it and moving on you can both stop hurting each other.

but it's like you're looking for someone to blame in this, like one party has to be the wrong one for you to split up so that you can for example tell yourself well he was a violent man so it's ok to split up.Sometimes there isn't a bad guy. You're just not meant to be and the relationship has run its course!

It's not really that - whatever happens, I think he had lots of good traits and is mostly a good person .. it's more that the recent behaviour had highlighted what happened back then and I've realised more and more (with help from MN which I didn't know about then) that it was really serious and probably should have been a deal breaker.
Now I'm in a position where I have to decide; do I encourage him to get "help" about that historic incident and the recent intimidation, and do whatever I can to try to bring intimacy, affection etc back into our relationship ..

Or do I accept as such that that was a deal breaker, that he's acted in a way that's heading in that direction again (even if it's a long time later) and that I need to retrospectively break the deal, do what o should've done then, and there's no point in trying to rebuild intimacy.

On one hand i'm trying to research finances and practicalities for separation & divorce, on the other one got the emotional side to work out and it's wrecking my head a bit.

*Apologies if I'm wrong, but are you doing some kind of course? Counselling, psychology.

Maybe it's me but you don't 'sound' distressed, more interested. Hope that makes sense*

Me?

I was distressed when that argument (when he squared up to me) took place, it was the worst in a very long time; I was distressed because I thought "we have to separate" ... I started looking into all the practicalities, the passed, we had a (not long) discussion about it and need to.takn more.

Sometimes I'm calm about it, other times I can't cope. Other stuff has happened in my life recently that makes it harder to cope with, though it would be hard anyway.

Your response showed that that seems to be exactly what you think.

He reacted like so many people would have 14 years ago after you made his life a misery for going to a strip club, then taunted him about cheating and said you would do it again. I'm sure you would have reacted worse yourself given the way you described yourself at the time..and now you're trying to paint him as some kind of abuser who needs to get help. I actually think you're coming across as very delusional here.

When he squared up to you recently, what exactly did he do - did he raise his fists as if he was about to hit you?

I think you have to think what your tipping point is. At the moment you are sharing the blame for things. My best friend is in a similar type of relationship but both are fiery and they are together despite cheating, violence, abuse etc. It works for them despite seeming toxic. My ex was abusive and threatening though a lot of the time very caring of me. I couldn't stand that behaviour (it crushed me) so I left him. I just think people will say ltb but you need to be ok with that path.

.and now you're trying to paint him as some kind of abuser who needs to get help.

Posters itt and my previous one suggested that perhaps he could get counselling about his behaviour when he seriously loses his temper. I asked him about it in our discussion a d he said he was open to it.

I have not painted him at any time in any way as a serial abuser. To the contrary I have argued the opposite to many many posters in the other thread.

He is willing to use violence and intimidation when he is angry with you. Only you can decide whether that's something you can accept. I couldn't.

I find it a bit odd when people think it's contradictory that someone can be capable of violence/nastiness and also of kindness and niceness. It's not contradictory at all. Everyone has good points and bad points. But some bad points cross the line, however many good points they might also have.

The recent argument is a wake up call that the status quo isn’t making either of you happy and can’t keep going on. There’s a lot of resentment that you both seem to harbour, and no intimacy to help you through your other problems just seems like you are constantly punishing each other. I don’t know how helpful bringing up the past is- if this happened so many years ago and you had a child together that suggests you worked your way through it and were in a good place with each other at some point, and if that’s not the case then why waste yet more of your lives existing and resenting each other?

Mmmm this does not scream ‘abuser’.

14 years is a very very long time.

Telling your DH you cheated and would again was abusive in itself. His reaction was aggressive and out of order. You were out of order.

I don’t know the specifics of this latest incident but one squaring up without any other even minor red flags makes me wonder why you are focusing on the squaring up? Why are you leaving him? If you are holding the fact that you ‘might leave’ over him, that is also emotionally abusive.

I don’t know, it feels like I’m not really getting what’s going on at all.

I'm sure you would have reacted worse yourself given the way you described yourself at the time

Reacted worse how - what do 5'6", 9 stone tops women do to 6'4" 15 st men .... Unless you involve weapons.

One of the realities of life is that female on male violence is rarely comparable to male on female violence..for the sane reasons that there are no mixed sex contact sports.

I don’t understand your answers.

If you actually feel intimidated and abused and feel that incident 14 years ago was so significant then leave.

But some bad points cross the line, however many good points they might also have.

That is the kind of perspective I'm trying to gain.

I’m not sure you are to be honest.

When he squared up to you recently, what exactly did he do - did he raise his fists as if he was about to hit you?

No, may sound laughable but I really can't imagine him raising/using his fists.

If you are holding the fact that you ‘might leave’ over him, that is also emotionally abusive.

I'm not. If you read the thread (it's not a long one so far) you'll see that he has mentioned separation and divorce. He has suggested we divorce at least twice since our DD was born .. but has backed out of it when I started making arrangements/started to follow through.

I thought straight after the argument recently that we would have to separate but have not said that directly.

If you actually feel intimidated and abused and feel that incident 14 years ago was so significant then leave.

I don't feel abused, he's not abusive.

I don't feel intimidated however I feel v angry and resentful that he tried to intimate me physically. Say whatever you like but don't be a fkg bully, using your size against someone smaller and weaker.

Until relatively recently I didn't appreciate the full .. significance of the incidents (holding down and pushing/flinging) and I also blamed myself/thought he had provocation.
In recent times I've started to think somewhat differently (my first thread gave some illuminating viewpoints) and combined with the squaring up thing .. has made me v conflicted.

What did he actually do though this time OP?
You said he squared up to you? that sometimes happens in arguments, both men and women do it. Women probably do it more often but we're not as scary.

I don't think the incident 14 years ago is relevant at all. My ex FIL slapped his wife one time..after he discovered she was having an affair. One time. It has never ever happened again despite a lot of bad behaviour on her part. He might have lost his temper on a few occasions and reacted angrily, but so has she. He would certainly have came across as more intimidating due to how a mans voice and how it booms when he's angry, along with the size difference between him, but he shouldn't be judged more harshly for his reaction just because he slapped her one time!

Mumsnet is one thing, but in real life I don't know anyone who would think that a slap after an affair was proof that he was a very dangerous man! or that it could be used as evidence that he was volatile over a decade later!

*Reacted worse how - what do 5'6", 9 stone tops women do to 6'4" 15 st men .... Unless you involve weapons.

One of the realities of life is that female on male violence is rarely comparable to male on female violence..for the sane reasons that there are no mixed sex contact sports.*

Reacted worse as in more aggressively, slapped him or hit him and so on. I never said you would have reacted worse and physically would have caused more harm than him, just that you might have been more out of control than he had been..and by the sounds of the way you went on back then it sounds like you could easily have reacted 'worse' than he did!