DP won't marry me....

[LittleBows]

My dp and I have been together a number of years and are expecting our first. We have discussed getting married in the past and he assured me he definately wanted to when the time was right.

Six months ago we were having a barney about something else but the topic came up. He actually said he had been planning a proposal that very weekend, but I'd gone and "ruined" it by arguing. It's fair to say that since then I have been expecting a proposal, but no joy.

Last night I probed the topic further and eventually found the real reason why he hasn't ever asked me (even though everything is in the right place) and it turns out the bottom line is he is worried that if we get divorced I will take half of his assets. He has various assets to his name whereas I don't. He has never ever hinted at this before in all our conversations and I feel very misled as he's had endless opportunity to tell me. Like many men, he's awful as discussions and even worse at decision making. He ponders 5 mins over whether to have orange or apple juice .

I think he knows whilst although it may make sense to him to protect his stuff, it's hardly romantic for me to hear and also, what can I do about it? I can't suddenly produce assets to match his. Needless to say I was crying into the pillow last night. I felt terrible, such a failure and if only I too had a top-paying job and a flash car etc etc. I wondered if anyone else has encountered this and how the heck it can be resolved?!

Yes that's manipulative and nasty. Perhaps he felt under pressure?

You cried because you had ruined things and not got a proposal? This doesn't sound right. You are having his baby. He should be begging you to marry him, not making you feel greatful for asking!!

Sorry you're in a relationship like this.
He doesn't sound very committed imho.
Not very nice but couldn't you have a pre-nup agreement?

Yes Horsey Woman, baby was planned!! Because I was led to believe a proposal was just round the corner I was feeling quite relaxed about it. He knew perfectly well that I want to get married so I thought there's no way he would have no intention of it esp when we are planning a child. If he'd have said Yes to a child but we're not getting married, then that would have been different. He never ever did or things might have been different now. But have to work with what I have. I too have heard that pre-nups are big in the States but that over here, courts resent being dictated to by an agreement between husband and wife and can totally overide them (Googled it today). If he finds that out I guess he'll never want to do it. I would sign one though if only to prove I'm not after his money, also that I'm not thinking we'll get divorced. But with a child then it's only fair he should provide a roof over its head, as I should too.

ok

1. If you were to split up, leaving you with his child, he would be expected to pay a hefty whack of maintenance. Odds are that if you split up, he won't have a flash car any more.

2. I am pretty sure that if you divorced you WOULDN'T get half his assets. I have always understood that actually, in terms of money, it makes little difference whether you are married or not, what you get money for is the kids (this could be COMPLETLEY wrong, its just I have never known anyone actually get straightforward, non child related, alimony in the UK). Also, I don't THINK marriage makes a huge difference to things like property if it is in his name-it makes it easier to establish a "beneficial interest", which is when you have contributed to it but it is not in your name-but that is ALL it is, easier. A direct debit from your bank account to the mortgage company for half the mortgage each month woudl be much more useful.

Also, with the recent(ish) changes to the laws on paternal rights, he doesn't have vastly different rights to a married father.

TBH, off the very top of my head (and it has been a LONG day so my head is a mushy one), I am struggling to see many strong financial or legal reasons for you to get married. There are some minor ones, I know, but I can't really think of anything that would affect you day to day. I have never studied family law though-this is general knowlege really.

And I am NOT a romantic-I think the important thing is the relationship, living together day to day and all the rest, not a day in a puffy dress and a bit of paper. I got married because when ds was born it would have been a lot harder for dp to get parental responsibility for ds if something had happened to me, and I wanted him never to have to go through that-this is NOT the case now though. I don't wear a ring most of the time and I call dp dp, not dh. And we don't have matching towels or anything.

I suppose I am saying that I can really see how he could love you very very much and still not want to get married. Actually, in some ways, I felt that getting married was a bit of a cheap shot-our relationship is our business.

LB, if your DP (I use the term loosely, because as I said, he doesn't sound remotely like a partner) is like this before you've had his baby, how d'you think he's going to be afterwards?

Do you work? How are you going ot support yourself? Will you have your own money while on maternity leave?

Oh no, poppet, I'm not saying you shouldn't plan a baby if you aren't married. Phew, whole other thing. I just mean that if it wasn't planned he might be getting a bit commitment-phobic. If it was planned he's being daft. What greater commitment is there than marriage. If he bestows that much importance on keeping all his assets to himself, when if you separate there will be a child involved, then there is something very wrong.

Oh hang on there IS one thing that might matter-his pension.

Odds are you are going to , at the least, drop your working hours after this baby is born. So you need to make sure that either he CAN name you on his pension (dp can only name a spouse-its a civil service one but from about 10 years ago, they have a new one now), or you are making adequate pension plans.

Now might be the time to talk about wages for housework/childcare perhaps...

Sounds like a nightmare, just to add that you are right pre-nups are not legally binding in this country, they are a useful indication of intention, but nothing more really. Although maybe a declaration of your intention to not take him for every penny might help?
It's a bit of a worrying attitude though, I wish I had some more concrete helpful advice.

Sorry, foot in mouth syndrome. That should say: what greater commitment is there than A BABY, NOT MARRIAGE!!!! Bloody hell!

oh x posted

pre-nupitals are toothless btw. Useless in america and laughed at over here. in particular any arrangement regarding land (eg splitting a house 2 ways, which is probably the big value item) would tend to need to be made in writing.

I am actually a bit concerned about whether he intends to actually support this kid 50/50 (or more, if he is doing more work and you more childcare so less work) while you are together.

Oh another slight point that I completely forgot is wills. IIRC it is going to be better all round in terms of avoiding inheritance tax (for you AND the child) if you ARE married.

Littlebows,

I am very sorry to hear of your disagreement.

I have been with my dp for 9 years this month and spent many years being told by nasty SIL that I wasn't family - just the live in girlfriend . This made me desperate to get dp down to the church - much to his resistance .

Eventually, we went to the solicitors had wills made out and I changed my name by deed poll having figured out it would never happen.

He finally agreed to get married last year but I worried, am I ready? will things be the same (or will he take me for granted?) and the organising ????

Please take heart that if he didn't love you he wouldn't be with you and as such your relationship is very much successful. I think you are being unjustly harsh to consider yourself a failure and you should just try and enjoy your new family - after all marriage is about a piece of paper and love. You have the love - is the paper so important?

This whole assets thing is interesting isn't it? Dh and I saw a solicitor to draw up a pre-nup (neither of us were that keen, but pressure from IL's who obviously thought I was after their loot!)

We met at Uni and had few of our own assets Hurly-Burly, but marrying young has its own probs especially if your IL's have money - I had been with dh for 5 year when we got married - even the most conniving 18 year old is unlikely to stick to one guy and then marry him at 23 on the off chance that one day she might be able to claim part of her dh's inheritance post-divorce)

Anyway, point is that the solicitor laughed at us (as I found that people often do at young love) and said "if you are already thinking about divorce perhaps you shouldn't be getting married".

When we explained that we were acting on the concerns of our parents (this all seems oh so long ago now, btw) he explained that pre-nups carry almost no legal weight, because overtime in a marriage situations change with career developments, sacrifices, children, etc, etc.

So we didn't bother. Hasn't been a problems and I haven't left dh so that I can get my grubby hands on his parents precious £££s. Because I married him because we loved each other and wanted to live our lives together. Full-stop.

I know you didn't mean that at all HorseyWoman! it's a perfectly valid question as background to the situation.

The reason why the faux proposal as I can call it now, seemed so realistic at the time was that he was the one who brought up the topic of not being married during the row (which was about something totally unrelated, can't even remember what now. Probably emptying the cat tray). He wasn't under pressure to say anything about it at the time - just came from nowhere which made it seem very credible.

I have a full-time job which pays over the national average, but not enough to buy a little house these days, maybe a studio or tiny flat. Even that might be a stretch unless I took a risk, borrowed more and rented a room to a lodger to help pay the bills. I am planning on taking maternity then going straight back to work, so he knows it's not like I'm envisaging a life as a SAHM athough it would be lovely for the child's sake (and he actually could comfortably support that).

I am very concerned that the man I love and have planned a family with, could actually turn out to be as shallow as that underneath. He's done a very good job of avoiding key conversations, or creating a distraction during them, so there's been a lot of smoke and mirrors covering the truth until I forced the issue (which I felt I'd done before. This divorce/assets etc is completely news to me.

Rantmum - his folks are quite well off themselves too, and although I guess you could say dp & I are a match in terms of everything else is aspirations, education etc etc - I just haven't been as successful in my career as he has in his.

Sometimes I get the impression that to them, I'm the starter, not the main course. I don't feel they take me seriously as his partner at all - I'm just X's current girlfriend (even tho have been together years). This is all thinly veiled with the usual good manners and pleasantries, but it's there all the same.

I asked dp last night that if I matched his wealth would there still be this problem or not. He got cross and shifty and said it wasn't to do with what I had or didn't have, it was to do with what he had. Obviously this is tosh as if I was a millionaire let's say, why would he need to protect anything. It is everything to do with it. Essentially he won't marry me because I am poor (relatively to him). That was the cause of a lot of bitter tears last night and on the way to work this a.m.

KD73 - I think that your story is heartening, but I still think that for alot of people marriage is more than just a piece of paper and love. It is a signal to the world that my dh is committed to me and proud of me and wants to share his life with me and is willing to make a public promise about those things. If that is important to LittleBows, I am sure that her dp is aware of that. If his stance had been clear - that he was against marriage as a construct, or that he felt that he could make those promises to her in another way, then that would be one thing.

But he is not saying he is against marriage, he is stating that his assets are at risk if they should divorce, if they get married. For me the idea of marriage is that you are agreeing to share life with another person; that includes sharing assets and sharing good communication so that the marriage is less likely to fail. I completely understand LB's disappointment and shock.

LB, you DON'T need to worry about the house, not really. He would have to pay toward stuff like that, regardless of whether you are married or not.

But I can see where you are coming from re the smoke and mirrors.

Since the kids were born we have had a joint bank account and everything has been utterly split. We have been through different combinations of who is working but it doesn't matter, if it comes into the house it is both of ours. I would be very pissed off if dp refused to share "his" money, it would imply that childcare wasn't proper work.

And I DO see a lot of good reasons not to get married. I think it utterly reasonable to refuse to get married, IF and only IF, you put the same level of financial and legal protection in place for your spouse and kids.

Spot on Rantmum - he's not saying "We love each other, why do we need a piece of paper to prove that" he's saying I don't want to marry you because I don't think it will last and I don't want you to get your hands on my loot - unforgivable really when you're having his baby and will have to take time out of work thus making yourself even poorer.

You are right, Rantmum - that's exactly how I feel.

It's just so gutting that he's finally revealed his true feelings when I'm at my most vulnerable. I am outraged for myself! The unfairness of it all! I know that if I rang my mum and told her what's gone on she would be absolutely fuming and rightly so.

However, I must take some responsibility. Perhaps if I had given him an ultimatum a long time ago (Mum's suggestion) things would be a lot clearer now, one way or the other.

So he's willing to have a child with a woman he purports to love but niggles over his 'assets' with his child's mother?

Do you want to marry a man who is so hung up on divorce?

Would you treat someone the way he's done you? If the answer is 'no' then you're not a failure. So quit beating yourself up.

I'm curious LB, if it was important to you to get married then why did you make the commitment to have his child first. I think that you lost your bargaining power when you did this. IMHO, your dp wasn't just about to pop the question when you had that row. He's just trying to make you blame yourself for not getting what you want and regain the upper hand.

Also, while I'm on the subject. I think he was wrong to put you in the situation that you are in without making his position clearer to you. It's much harder for you to just walk away from a relationship when you are pregnant or have a small child. I don't think he's thought about how he might feel towards the baby. That may change his position.