Is it ok for a lover to ask repeatedly for sex acts he knows you don't want?

[Interestedwoman]

I'm not going into grizzly details in this original post as I'm on Relationships rather than Sex board, but will give more detail in the thread if people request it.

My lover/FWB says there's nothing wrong with him asking for what he wants, even though I've told him I'm not into X, Y and Z.

I did do these things early on (a lot of people are wilder at the start of something I think) but gradually decided they weren't for me- or there are some things I've never liked, which I've made clear from the start.

I have bipolar and was in a ridiculously horny phase when we started seeing each other. I also have more insecurities about my body at the moment as I put on a bit of weight.

Another thing he's said is that most women enjoy X, (which he loves and I don't really like) and says maybe I should have therapy so I can enjoy it, as I could be missing out.

Interested in your opinions :)

Although I don't condone violence I think we are all in agreement that Bob needs a fucking good shoeing.

I'd be seriously interested in your opinions about this, or at least to have it spelt out for me- what is wrong?

HE is wrong OP. Everything about him is WRONG .

You know this. Your body knows this.

This man has been using you, start to finish.

He doesn't see or appreciate you, at all.

Your self esteem is so low OP, and when our self esteem is damaged we are vulnerable to predatory types like him (even without the additional vulnerability that comes with hypersexual hypomania).

Yes, it feels wrong. Rightly so. No matter the mental gymnastics, you know that this man is violating you, over and over. .

He blamed you for being raped (! piece of shit that he is), and even casually waved away the violence inherent in the act of rape. That alone will have set healthy ALARM BELLS RINGING deep inside you. HE IS DANGEROUS.

You're retraumatising yourself every time you engage with him. I understand this is compulsion, and very confusing for you.

Keep growing your awareness of those alarm bells. Heed them.

OP, you don't deserve one iota of mistreatment. I promise you, you don't. Whatever fucked up messages you may have internalised in childhood, and since, about your value, your role, your worth - they are lies!

YOU are as WHOLE, as REAL, as DESERVING of LOVE and KINDNESS and CONNECTION as anyone else! It's so important to realise this, and such a huge positive step, but I know it can be devastating in a way as well, our defences can be against it,,
because when we become conscious of our worth, we also realise the depths of the abuse and damage we've suffered (and tolerated, and at times even actively sought out and subjected ourselves to) all along.

I hope you can do something so powerful and healing for yourself, interestedwoman: Reject HIM!
As an act of self-care, self-preservation : reject the hell out of him!

Get yourself the fuck away from him ENTIRELY, cut contact, go cold turkey. In time, the obsession you have with him will recede and you will see him for the revolting, rapey piece of shit that he is*. If that's a scary thought, I get it. But denial does us no favours, in the long term.

I mean, HOW DARE HE use you like this? Treat you like this? Speak to you like this?? HOW FUCKING DARE HE!!? Eurgh! REJECT HIM! EJECT HIM!

Find yourself, find the truth, transcend this shit. You deserve so much better OP. Believe it.

You have already embarked on this journey. Keep going, @interestedwoman, with your Eyes Open. You have your therapist, you have wonderful sisters upthread from me, you absolutely can do this. You are not alone. I hope you're feeling okay today. I understand this whole process is really difficult. Best wishes, and a for you. ((hug))

^'There is an integrity filled little girl waiting for you to notice her, and start listening to her.
She will keep you out of dangerous situations because she is the voice of integrity, but its hard for you to take notice of her when everybody squashed her.'^

@ScreamingLadySutch I like this one. I've gone back to studying/reading a little bit, which I used to love as a child. It always gave me an ego boost :)

'Hang on. He was going to give you £40 to go to an adult cinema to have sex with random men?...There’s no chance he’s actually a pimp trying to “turn you out” as a prostitute is there?'

@AlwaysInTroubleAgain I think we had discussed it once as possibly a kink I might enjoy as a bit of a sub. He knows, though, that I'm not particularly well off, which makes it have a hint of seriousness.

^I'm worried for you OP, but very happy that you're in counselling. Please be honest with them.

Do you not have any friends or siblings that are looking out for you?^

@Closetbeanmuncher Yes, I'm honest with therapists etc. My mum hated him when he hurt me so much in 2018. She's still suspicious of him, and my best friend hates him. He's loving this thread. He says I should read it every day.

Although I don't condone violence I think we are all in agreement that Bob needs a fucking good shoeing.

LOL!

'No matter the mental gymnastics, you know that this man is violating you, over and over.'

@LongDarkBlues Yes, come to think of it you're right, it does feel that way. But what is it about it that you rightly identify I feel is violating? Sorry if I'm thick and need it spelt out. :)

' I hope you're feeling okay today. I understand this whole process is really difficult.'

I actually have had a feeling of relief today for some reason, knowing that I will do nothing sexually with him again. There was something psychologically unpleasant about it- and that's aside from it being unpleasant physically due to his constant ED, which I had to work with.

I will feel anxious though, trying to keep him as a friend/communicate with him without the sex. I know you all think I shouldn't anyway. Will see how it goes.

I will feel anxious though, trying to keep him as a friend/communicate with him without the sex

Look, we all know that he is going to ramp up the pressure on you to resume the sex with him. Talking you into it, playing on your insecurities and making you feel guilty until you give in is something he seems to really enjoy.

If you really want to continue seeing him as a friend, are there ways you can protect yourself from this pressure? Perhaps by only meeting him outside the house? Maybe ask a mutual friend to join you guys, or have something else you need to go to after an hour?

I just don't think you should rely on telling him your boundaries, then helplessly expecting him to just respect them. He won't. Nor should you rely on your own assertiveness in the moment - he has already proved adept at manipulating you to do things you don't want to.

He is violating your boundaries, your wants and needs, your preferences, your right to say no. He only cates about his wants and needs. To be FWB, you need to also have the friends part. A person that interrupts u talking, and says OK how about sex now cause u are going on and on about your issues, is not a friend! It's rude and disrespectful, a stranger would treat you better than this! He is abusing his knowledge of psychology to manipulate you into doing what he wants. He knows you are vulnerable due to your mental health and past experiences, and uses that to his advantage.

It doesn't matter that he is not YOUR therapist, what he is doing is unethical and violates every code of conduct that he needs to adhere to as a therapist. Think of it like this, he is a teacher in a school, but he doesn't have you in his class, and you are a student, wouldn't you think that it's an abuse of power?

Basically, you are not on an equal standing within this relationship. Even if u like the sub/dom way, this isn't even a healthy way to be a sub/dom, as a dom would care of your needs and boundaries and wouldn't persuade you to engage in harmful to yourself behaviour. (or at least that's my understanding of this sort of relationships from reading about it lol). He does not care about your physical, emotional or mental well being. He is not your friend, he is a user. He will remain in your life as long as he thinks that he can get what he wants. And trust me, in the coming days, weeks, months he will employ every technique he can to change ur mind. He is fully aware of your people pleasing personality, your fear of rejection, your lack of healthy boundaries, your inability to stand up for yourself. Not trying to be harsh, but your thread is the most spine chilling thing I have read on MN, and it's disgusting how this guy has groomed and exploited you, and you still see him through rose tinted glasses. Imagine if you had a daughter and she was treated like this... If someone treated my daughter like this I would bloody cut their dick off

'Look, we all know that he is going to ramp up the pressure on you to resume the sex with him. Talking you into it, playing on your insecurities and making you feel guilty until you give in is something he seems to really enjoy.''

@FineWordsForAPorcupine You're all going to roll your eyes now lol, but he seemed genuinely shocked that I implied he had sexually exploited me in the past, (he disagreed with me of course) and he was concerned I might involve the police or something. I think he is truly paranoid about that, and will steer clear of anything sexual for that reason.

There was another conversation where I thought he was playing tactics. Aside from the sexual coercion thing, this is the only other example I've noticed so far of the milking of emotions/coercion. It's a mildish example but it stood out for me due to it nearly eliciting the same emotions for me.

We play the game Pokemon Go. In this game you can trade monsters. The monsters usually come out not as good when they reach the other person, so it's a bit of a waste of a monster if it's any good to begin with.

He always asks, 'what's the strongest one that you're prepared to give me?'
I get slightly similar emotions to the sexual requests- I don't want to do what he wants but feel I have to do it to please him. I've said repeatedly, 'I don't like swapping ones that are any good because they usually come out crap at the other end. But he still tends to try this repeatedly. If he'd done it today I'd decided I was going to say 'this is another example of you doing that manipulative thing' or whatever. I'm not overly bothered by this example, just thought it was interesting.
Anyway, today he said 'what's the crappest one that you've got?' It seemed to me that he is aware on some level that I'm onto what he's doing in general. Forgive the long winded and lame example.

'It doesn't matter that he is not YOUR therapist, what he is doing is unethical and violates every code of conduct that he needs to adhere to as a therapist. Think of it like this, he is a teacher in a school, but he doesn't have you in his class, and you are a student, wouldn't you think that it's an abuse of power?'

@Azadewow Great post and good example, thanks.

My lover/FWB says there's nothing wrong with him asking for what he wants, even though I've told him I'm not into X, Y and Z

He isn't a FWB - the whole point of the "friends" bit is to treat each other kindly/with respect.

FWIW I don't think it is ever wrong for someone to say "i'm into this, what do you think?". It is, however always wrong to continue to angle for the act if the other person says they aren't up for that.

Oh, here's another example of his out-of-the-norm (for him) behaviour today.

We were talking to a woman who knows both him and 'Fred' (my bestie.)

I said to her 'oh you know Fred, he's my best friend.'

Bob said, 'I thought I was your best friend!'

So I felt I had to say, 'Oh, of course you are!'

He's under no illusions and knows that Fred is my best friend. He frequently refers to him as such, and has never tried to say otherwise until today.

Why are you still spending time with a man who exerts so much control over you and makes you feel so uncomfortable?

@Interestedwoman I’ve just read the latest posts. What exactly is it that you want from this man? He is a fwb in your words but it seems he met you when you were unstable and vulnerable. You have not developed a friendship, you have developed a co-dependency. You are seeking emotional validation and he is seeks thrills and kicks through pushing you as hard he can to do things he KNOWS YOU DON’T WANT TO DO!! He sees himself as some sort of sexual Machiavellian Dom.

However I really don’t care about him, he isn’t important, you are. Why are you still desperate to hang onto him? He isn’t bringing anything good to your life. He isn’t your boyfriend, he isn’t your friend. You have to let him go to make space in your life to make friends with yourself, to get to know yourself, what you like, what your red lines are, what makes YOU happy.

Then you’ll be ready for friends, fwb or an actual relationship. But right now you are torturing yourself over him and he is so not worth it.

What @Zofloramummy said!

I would rather have no friends than this nasty twat.

You're all going to roll your eyes now lol, but he seemed genuinely shocked that I implied he had sexually exploited me in the past, (he disagreed with me of course) and he was concerned I might involve the police or something. I think he is truly paranoid about that, and will steer clear of anything sexual for that reason.

Good people don't do things that make them paranoid the police may arrest them for a sexual offence.

Good people don't need the fear of police involvement to stop them doing sexual things that are potentially distressing to others.

This man is not your friend. It's horrible to think but if he met someone very similar to you who was also happy to go along with his sexual wants, I don't think you'd hear from him that much any more.

And he would probably turn it into a way to make you feel you had to compete for his "affection". But that affection is actually just manipulation.

I hope you can find a way to see that no redeeming features (though I can't see any tbh) outweigh his behaviour and natural character.

Good luck OP I really feel for you

Thanks 'ladies.' :)

I'm starting to come to terms with the fact I've been, at the very least, sexually coerced or had someone attempt to sexually coerce me. I don't think he 100% knew what he was doing 18 months ago when he sexually exploited me (of course, there's a strong possibility he did!)

But without a doubt I've put up with attempts at sexual coercion/pressure for the last 9 months or something. I gradually started to have to say 'no' to things- not due to suddenly developing strength of character, but because I couldn't bring myself to do the things I found uncomfortable/gross anymore.

I think it was the 'would you A, B, C, D...X, Y, Z?' 'conversation' that spelt it out most clearly for me.

Hopefully he'll stop doing this stuff now, at least when it comes to sex.

Thanks again! xxx

Can I ask why you think having him in your life and having to negotiate conversations and interactions with the knowledge that given even the slightest indication he will pile the pressure on again is preferable to not having him in your life?

Wouldnt life be so much easier if you just didnt see him anymore? You see him as a friend but what friendship qualities does he demonstrate? None that I can see...

'Can I ask why you think having him in your life and having to negotiate conversations and interactions with the knowledge that given even the slightest indication he will pile the pressure on again is preferable to not having him in your life?'

@Zofloramummy I hope he won't be that way now. He's a bit paranoid about him being seen by anyone as sexually exploitative/coercive. If he ever starts up again, I'll try and just say 'you're doing that thing again-stop it.'

'Wouldnt life be so much easier if you just didnt see him anymore? You see him as a friend but what friendship qualities does he demonstrate? None that I can see...'

@Lozzerbmc He does let me chat about things, ask how I am etc, spend time with me that isn't sexual. The 'that's good, now X my Y' was only once or twice.

@Interestedwoman Good on ya! If he starts up again tell him you possess friends with baseball bats. Its true, I do have one. He isn't to know that we are miles away and wouldn't use it (just because he isn't worth the jail time!)

@SirChing I have had to 'involuntarily' gradually say no to more activities to him over the last few months. I just can't do the things! I don't feel like stripping off and stuff for decrepit strangers. (random letters here) I don't want to do X I find it embarrassing afterwards and that isn't sexy, I I have never liked Y, and Z was just gross most of the time! I can't even

As an aside, how can someone have sex with anyone if they find it this hard to say no? I suppose, at least with him, I am learning because I felt I didn't have a choice but to say it lol.

As I've said, the sex was unfulfilling, anyway.

I need a break from it all with anyone, if I get the urge I'll be self-sufficient. Happy Singleton it is!

Some people make it hard to say no. Those people are called manipulative cunts! If it's tricky to say no to someone, that's most likely an indication that they aren't any good for you. Only sleep with someone that you feel comfy saying no to.

I'm not about to judge what you got up to, as an ex member of Fetlife, I have seen plenty Its that you don't want to do whatever it is that's important, regardless of what that thing is. Could be oral, could be shagging strangers, could by wearing flippers in the bedroom. None if that matters. If you don't want to do it, that doesn't make you weird or repressed. It makes you a person.with preferences. Anyone who doesn't respect that and tries to push it should jog on!

I agree, being single is the best!

@TheQueenBeyondTheWall posted this in another thread. It's totally him

Evening all :) I saw Bob today. How is it possible to be so fond of and fancy someone so much, and yet have the feeling that sex with them would be somehow 'wrong?' Can any of you think of an explanation? Obvs I'm going to discuss in therapy etc, but my appointment isn't till next Wednesday, as I had to change my day. Would be interested in your opinions.

The other thing that happened is he said 'I'm not going to share my opinions with you so much' - I was incredibly saddened by this, as I want to be the best friend I can be and for him to share everything with me, and I'm interested in his opinions. I was miserable and had a bit of a cry to myself later. When I asked him why afterwards by text, he said 'I don't want to upset you- I get upset when you're upset, and I can't handle it on top of my health, work etc.' I was so upset, as it seemed like I must've done something wrong. I kind of proved his point that he can't say anything lol!

He was guilting you into not showing your feelings to him because they make him feel bad. Not because he gives a fuck.

Honestly OP. Men are two a penny. Fancying someone doesnt mean you have to pursue it.

This is a good opportunity for you to reduce contact with the view to letting go of this "friendship". He's basically telling you he doesn't want to chat to you now that the sex that he wants isn't an option.

He's not your friend
Let him go
You'll feel a huge weight lift off your shoulders when you step away from him.

I speak from experience - I had a FWB used to call me names & sulk when I declined to participate in his sexual fantasies.

Dear God, OP.

You know exactly why sex with him feels wrong - because it's rubbish and he tries to get you to do things you don't enjoy. It's not mysterious.

He's saying he won't share his opinions etc because you've withdrawn the sex option, so it's punishment. He's manipulating you. he's turned it back on you. Again.

He keeps right on suckering you.

he said 'I'm not going to share my opinions with you so much'

He is punishing you - he knows that in the past, you were willing to trade sex for his friendship and emotional intimacy. So he is withdrawing his side of the deal to pressure you into restarting the sex.

I was incredibly saddened by this

He knows - he wanted to make you sad.

it seemed like I must've done something wrong

In his eyes, you did. How dare you withdraw sex! He will punish you until you capitulate.

I kind of proved his point that he can't say anything

It's called a double bind - a situation in which any action you take has a downside.

He is an unpleasant, manipulative person. I am deeply concerned by how dependent on him you are. Do you have other people in your life who can support you?