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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Is it ok for a lover to ask repeatedly for sex acts he knows you don't want?

335 replies

Interestedwoman · 20/01/2020 00:38

I'm not going into grizzly details in this original post as I'm on Relationships rather than Sex board, but will give more detail in the thread if people request it.

My lover/FWB says there's nothing wrong with him asking for what he wants, even though I've told him I'm not into X, Y and Z.

I did do these things early on (a lot of people are wilder at the start of something I think) but gradually decided they weren't for me- or there are some things I've never liked, which I've made clear from the start.

I have bipolar and was in a ridiculously horny phase when we started seeing each other. I also have more insecurities about my body at the moment as I put on a bit of weight.

Another thing he's said is that most women enjoy X, (which he loves and I don't really like) and says maybe I should have therapy so I can enjoy it, as I could be missing out.

Interested in your opinions :)

OP posts:
category12 · 21/01/2020 19:19

Spoke to him later and summarised what you 'guys' have said. He said partly that it was that I hadn't been clear, and for instance if he asked if I wanted to do Z, I'd sometimes say 'not at the minute' or something. I apologised or something, and made it clear that I don't want to do X or Y.

Uh-huh, so it's your fault. Not his for not accepting a no. (You know that men are perfectly able to recognise a "soft no" as well as hard ones? Plus he's a therapist for fucks sake.)

You said I made a great analogy. So, do you see how his behaviour is wrong?

What exactly is the friendship part of this relationship? He turns everything into sex talk. He fucked off when you were struggling. He exploits you sexually.

Zofloramummy · 21/01/2020 19:22

I’ve read your latest posts @Interestedwoman and my overall feeling is of him as a disinterested scientist trying to see exactly how far he can make you conform to his sexual ideal with no care about you as a human being. He sounds sex obsessed and particularly with your sexual life in a weirdly voyeristic way that’s clinical and detached.

He is bad news indeed and as much as you might fancy him he is detrimental to your mental health. You are in therapy and have been for years (no judgement here, I applaud you for tackling your issues) but you are spending so much mental time and energy on a man who you aren’t in a relationship instead of focusing on healing yourself.

He’s an addiction, like smoking or booze, you know it’s bad for you but you convince yourself you need them. You don’t.

FabbyChix · 21/01/2020 19:25

It’s controlling and abusive get rid

5zeds · 21/01/2020 20:31

Not a friend

Tfgjiknfr · 21/01/2020 20:38

You have been raped. And he persuaded you to have sex with strangers for his enjoyment. Knowing you weren't in a place to make good decisions. The man is a monster. How can you consider him a friend?

Exactly. It's really disturbing that not only do you think him a friend but that you still fancy him. It feels a bit Stockholm syndrome to me.

Isthisit22 · 21/01/2020 20:45

I'm really sorry to be brutal here OP but he is not your friend.
He does not value you as a friend or person.
He wants to talk about sex all of the time and preferably fulfill all of HIS fantasies by using your body.
Stop analysing yourself and get rid of this terrible person from you life.
He is not a friend!!

PhilomenaChristmasPie · 21/01/2020 20:47

No.

BlouseAndSkirt · 21/01/2020 22:04

You have been raped. And he persuaded you to have sex with strangers for his enjoyment. Knowing you weren't in a place to make good decisions. The man is a monster. How can you consider him a friend

OP I am so sorry that happened to you.

Stand where I am standing and look at a woman who has struggled all her life with social confidence and self esteem, works as hard as she can to keep her mental health, a serious diagnosed condition, stable.

She suffers the most devastating sexual attack.

In the aftermath of which a man who practices as a therapist, and knows she is in an episode, sweet talks her into sex with strangers for HIS pleasure.

He rejects her, her mental health team keep her in hospital because they fear / know she is vulnerable and will be sexually exploited.

He then gaslights her: tries to tell her that she needs therapy to enable her to facilitate yet more of his own sexual compulsions.

She wants friendship, to talk, he wants sex... sex that she isn’t into, so he denies her even good sex.

His friend, who came to him for company, support and chat.

OP, my heart weeps for this woman I really want to protect her.

Don’t you?

BecauseReasons · 21/01/2020 22:29

Discussing likes and dislikes can be a perfectly normal and useful thing to do in a relationship. However, the power balance here is so off-kilter that the discussion isn't able to serve its purpose. I think maybe you need to write down what you are/are not happy with, 100% honestly, and then present him with a copy. I mean, ideally you'd leave him, but as you don't seem to be thinking along those lines yet...

carlywurly · 21/01/2020 22:36

He sounds like a dangerous narcissist. They often find their way into therapy roles.

You need support to get the hell away from this situation. Nothing about it sounds to be healthy or in your best interests.

carlywurly · 21/01/2020 22:36

He sounds like a dangerous narcissist. They often find their way into therapy roles.

You need support to get the hell away from this situation. Nothing about it sounds to be healthy or in your best interests.

carlywurly · 21/01/2020 22:37

Stupid iPad, sorry

AtrociousCircumstance · 21/01/2020 22:38

This is very disturbing. No it’s not ok.

The fact that he is a therapist is doubly disturbing.

The wisest thing to do would be to distance yourself from this manipulative prick.

Interestedwoman · 21/01/2020 22:54

'Uh-huh, so it's your fault. Not his for not accepting a no. (You know that men are perfectly able to recognise a "soft no" as well as hard ones? Plus he's a therapist for fucks sake.)'

@category12 True. Thanks.

'You said I made a great analogy. So, do you see how his behaviour is wrong?'

Yes, I think there are lots of bits to it which will gradually slot together in my head. For a start I can see his encouraging me to 'spend too much on shoes' (have risky sex when I was hyper) was wrong. He knows what hypomania is and how it would effect someone, and he shouldn'tve done that. I think he got carried away with fulfilling his own desires/fantasies, and let them blind him to what was happening (and as you say @SirChing , that is the generous explanation.) I have no regrets about having done the cinema thing etc, but someone else easily could've done that stuff when they were hyper, and regretted it deeply later.

I was thinking for a moment that his sexual 'interrogations' are a form of sexual bullying, but maybe it's that he's trying to see what I might be up for doing/persuaded to do, rather than that he's deliberately trying to make me feel uncomfortable. I'll spell it out if/when he does it again, and make it clear how it makes me feel.

'What exactly is the friendship part of this relationship?'

We do chat somewhat, and spend a lot of time together. We play Pokemon together. Grin He's not all bad I'm sure, but I'll be observing more closely now. He does let me talk sometimes, though he tends to often just tell me I'm thinking wrong, which isn't always helpful to me/people IMHO, at least early in a conversation, and in a way that grates. You can know inwardly that how you're thinking is wrong, and just be letting off steam. I had another friend who was like that, with her it came across as somewhat unsupportive/cruel. She would say people who'd hurt me were justified in things they'd said/done. Don't get me wrong, tell a friend if they're wrong in being hurt over something they're hurt about, but there are ways and means IMHO. But who am I to give an opinion on how to interact socially? Smile

I don't mean Mumsnet- you lot can be as brutally insightful as you wish, and I expect and desire nothing less. Smile

'He fucked off when you were struggling.'

Yes, that wasn't good. He'd say he had to do it for his own self care. At the time it made him seem like a fair weather friend, and also made me feel awful about myself.

I think he's pretty much made up for it since in the amount of time he's given me. Though I was disappointed a few days ago- I would've wanted to talk about some things and had even thought up bits of conversations in my head, only for him to go on about sex as soon as we met up. But he was having a bad day that day.

^'you are spending so much mental time and energy on a man who you aren’t in a relationship instead of focusing on healing yourself.

He’s an addiction, like smoking or booze, you know it’s bad for you but you convince yourself you need them. You don’t.'^

@Zofloramummy Yes, that's what one of the therapists said. She said people/I use things like food, booze, him or sex in general as a 'bounce,' to give them a temporary boost in self-esteem. It prevents them/me from doing the work, as you say.

OP posts:
Interestedwoman · 21/01/2020 23:14

^'She wants friendship, to talk, he wants sex... sex that she isn’t into, so he denies her even good sex.

His friend, who came to him for company, support and chat.'^

@BlouseAndSkirt I've had a glass of wine- you're making me well up :) Great post- all true. Except he didn't start the cinema etc after the acquaintance rape I don't think,

@BecauseReasons Yes, I quite often find it easier to write than say stuff verbally, at least with him.

'He sounds like a dangerous narcissist. '

@carlywurly He admits he has narcissistic traits, but he says he deliberately cultivated them to overcome avoidant traits. 'Whistling in the dark.' He is a genius though, so it'd be hard not to think highly of oneself if one was a success socially, vocationally, intellectually etc. He would say we should all be aware of our strengths, and boast/big ourselves up a bit more.

What do you personally mean by a dangerous narcissist, and what do you see of that in his behaviour? (genuine question- I've obviously learned a bit about Narcissists, I'm on Mumsnet and we discuss them a lot. I've also watched some videos, for my own interest, and am doing the Freedom Programme out of a macabre fascination and also to help me recognize 'red flags.' But I'd appreciate seeing what you mean about him in black and white.

@AtrociousCircumstance I'm not ready to do that 100% yet, I do like to think he has an ok side, but a good point well made. Smile Thanks. x

OP posts:
Stella8686 · 21/01/2020 23:17

He's got you apologising for bringing up the subject of "why do you keep bringing up x, y, z when I've said I don't like it"

You've apologised then he's countered with
Well then do you like this?
Do you like that?
What about x together?

He's an expert manipulator

You are a people pleaser/ sub

You lied about an answer because in your head you think

'Oh I've brought it up and he's gave a good answer (twisted answer) now I can't say no to everything he asks me. I'll say no to the worst and yes to the ones I'm not so keen on, that's not too bad'

You can't be honest with him or yourself. It is a toxic relationship.

He's toying with you emotionally, sexually, Dom with your boundaries BECAUSE IT STIMULATES HIM TO MAKE YOU UNCOMFORTABLE!

Have you ever tried to manipulate him/ persuade him to do something he doesn't want to

  1. No because you're decent
  2. No because you're scared of repercussions.
  3. No because he'll flat refuse and denounce you for it

So much wrong here

If it was an open discussion about likes and dislikes then dislikes have to be respected

You are addicted he is using you

Manipulating/ narcissistic men can be great wonderful people when they want to be, doesn't mean you need to devalue yourself and happiness to please him

Please talk to your therapist more, the sex stuff will help you realise patterns of behaviour. There's a reason you say yes to him all the time and it's not because you benefit from him in your life or your bed

I read all your posts, sorry for your trauma xxx

Stella8686 · 21/01/2020 23:21

Sorry, I said you say yes to him all the time, which obviously you don't, in regard to the start of your thread.

I meant you've said yes to thinks you wanted to say no to but you don't want to say no too much x

Interestedwoman · 21/01/2020 23:25

'the sex stuff will help you realise patterns of behaviour. There's a reason you say yes to him all the time and it's not because you benefit from him in your life or your bed'

@Stella8686 What sort of reasons do you mean? As far as I'm concerned maybe it's about my fear of rejection. That tends to be my main issue.

'I read all your posts, sorry for your trauma xxx'

Aww, thanks. xx The repeated rejection I've experienced in my life, is far more painful to me than any rape.

OP posts:
Luckystar777 · 21/01/2020 23:40

Jeez, he's treating you like a total utter fool.

I'd be reporting him (he should not work in therapy of ANY kind) and blocking him.

Maybe one day you'll wake the f* up.

SMDH.

Interestedwoman · 21/01/2020 23:41

'Have you ever tried to manipulate him/ persuade him to do something he doesn't want to'

@Stella8686 I did ask him to be a bit more romantic. Grin He said he's virtually the least romantic person in the world. I think he did try a bit.

^2. No because you're scared of repercussions.

  1. No because he'll flat refuse and denounce you for it^

True, I had been on Mumsnet for a few weeks and was inspired by all the sisters on here and how assertive they are.

I sent something via text that could've benefited from more of an answer and he answered with 'ok.' I said to him that when he says that it comes across as a superficial attempt to keep the peace.

He accused me of narcissistically wanting him to play by my rules and said he would continue to say 'ok.'

I was really hurt! I think there'd be no worse thing someone could call me than a narcissist. And I honestly didn't mean it that way. I just was trying to be assertive and explain how what he'd said had come across to me and that it wasn't helping me at that time. I was also just teasing him a little for his quality of being able to be very diplomatic- that's a trait I personally mostly admire, rather than purely a criticism. I was just teasing him about it, and he saw it as I called him 'a liar' and hit back. I was already worked up at the time over a falling out with another friend, about which I was already gutted.

OP posts:
Stella8686 · 21/01/2020 23:45

Something your therapist could help with

But I've been in similar situation where I've done things and afterward thought. "How did I end up doing that, it was good/ ok/ but I didn't plan on it"

During sex or talking about it I feel more open/ horny but I do things I told myself I wasn't going to because I get the endorphins and I like the escapism of 'just doing it' 'fuck it, ok' it makes me feel like I'm exciting or interesting or good at sex, but I don't often get pleasure from it. then I feel like shit or think, I wasn't going to do that.

It's behavioural decision making. Or you do it because you're trying to impress them, please them or make them stay/ stay interested.

But like I said you do say no to him for some things, you say yes to some things you'd rather not do

SisterVanHelsing · 21/01/2020 23:48

Ffs, this guy is everything you desire except he's a fucking abusive wanker.

There are dozens of people near you, maybe down your street, who can be everything you desire without being a fucking abusive wanker.

He is standing in their way. Kick him out of it. And report him to the Gestalt Therapy watchdog, whoever they might be.

Honestly, you'd be surprised how many sexy and lovely yet not abusive people there are around.

PurpleTrilby · 21/01/2020 23:50

TLDR. He's a complete cunt. End of. Therapist my arse, that's a cover, fuck him off.

Stella8686 · 21/01/2020 23:50

Narcissists don't like be called out on their behaviour, it's interesting he called you one.

They can't handle reasoned criticism because all they can come back with is you're wrong, I'm right.

They can't see it from your point of view because you are incapable of empathy

Something else you mentioned previously when he wouldn't support you in a time of need

Interestedwoman · 22/01/2020 00:12

They can't handle reasoned criticism because all they can come back with is you're wrong, I'm right.

@Stella8686 When he was victim-blaming over the rape thing and I explained how to him, at that point he did say 'you're quite right, I'm sorry.' But later he said he'd spoken to SARC and they said the things he said were fine, it was just too soon. I doubt he told them all of the stuff he said. Or maybe it was a mate of his he spoke to.

Amongst the things he said is 'this is a learning experience for you.'

I can understand how being raped is a leaning experience for me as someone with bipolar, as there were ways my condition could've been better managed, by consultants etc. Then I wouldn't have got off with an acquaintance I knew was dodgy from the start.

But I don't think that for the average woman being raped should be told this will be a 'learning experience'- they might have to learn things they shouldn't have had to- extra caution etc, but there's nothing they've done wrong from which they need to learn in order to not be raped.

'With what you're doing, you need a rape alarm and pepper spray.' I talked a good talk about group sex at the time, but I hadn't yet done anything except had 2 new partners in a month. A rape alarm doesn't tend to be used indoors of course, and pepper spray is illegal for civilians who aren't police etc in the UK.

When I pulled him up on this and other things that I can't entirely recall, he said he said them because he didn't know what to say. But I'dve thought he would know what to say? He also implied he would talk to his clients like this in order to keep them safe. I don't think I would go back if a therapist spoke to me like that.

Another more casual comment was 'a non-violent rape, I assume?' (!)
He was kind of wrong anyway, in that the bloke grabbed my legs so I couldn't move, and I said no four times. But I'm just degenerating into slagging him off now lol, and that stuff is in the past.

He did support me for a while afterwards, but with his health he said he could only manage so much, and I probably/clearly was a pain in the arse.

OP posts:
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