Divorcing sulking H - will it happen in 2020?

[jamaisjedors]

So this is my FIFTH thread, and no, I'm still not divorced and probably won't be in 2020 as my exH is refusing to sign the initial papers and so this could drag on until 2021 (2 years after our separation) when I can divorce him without his consent.

First thread from December 2019 after my H ruined my birthday weekend (and 1st anniversay of my dad's death) by giving me the silent treatment all weekend to "punish me" for not being grateful enough for him coming away and buying me a present and a card.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3448545-Confronting-DH-about-his-sulking?msgid=84022238

Thanks to some amazing posters I realised that H's behaviour (which was not at all a one-off) was abusive and unacceptable.

I prepared to leave him and got plans in place but got "hoovered" back in by H with promises of joint counselling, individual counselling for him, and regular "date nights". Unfortunately none of that changed the dynamic in our relationship : 2nd thread :

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3498886-Confronting-DH-about-his-sulking-part2?msgid=85957683

I started a 3rd thread in May when H and I had decided to separate :

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3580872-LEAVING-sulking-H?msgid=88239005

and that's when things got nightmarish.

As everyone on here pointed out, the most dangerous time for women is when they decide to leave an abusive partner.

In a nutshell, H went missing, had an acute psychotic episode, was admitted to a psychiatric facility and is still in there now.

Staff at the hospital warned me H could be dangerous for me and advised me to move out asap which I did, in fear for my life.

Fourth thread :
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/a3637219-DIVORCING-sulking-H?msgid=92845754#92845754

saw me going to court to safeguard the DC through a request for full custody with limited visiting rights.

With the help of my great lawyer we got the decision we wanted from the judge but the battle never ends over every little thing - schools, activities, money...

Now I am at the stage of entering financial negotiations with exH through lawyers and solicitors plus he has appealed the judge's initial decision so we have to go back to court in mid-February.

Fun start to the New Year which is why, a whole year on, I still need the support and advice of all of those who've been through similar situations or who are just naturally wise !

I have also come a very long way this year.

Leaving a controlling and emotionally/verbally abusive relationship was the hardest thing I've ever done.

Actually NO, the hardest thing I ever did was STAY in that relationship so long in a bid to keep our family together and make it work.

I'd love to think that by sharing this journey on here it might help others who are doubting their strength and capacity to leave - my life is a million times better now although I still have a lot of healing to do.

Surely no one in their right mind, would go to court twice to fight over child contact time, could imagine that this wasn't a full on, real life, end of a marriage.

It’s like he thinks you haven’t actually left him. Like all of this is an extra dramatic gesture on your part and you’ll get over it and come back to him.

This exactly!!!!

I cant get over how deluded he is.

I suppose because he has mantrums it's easy for him to think this is done game play on your part. After all it will never fit his narrative of himself that you wouldn't want to be with him as he's such a wonderful catch!

You ex has clearly been viewing the split as way of indulging you and "letting you have your day" rather than as a real threat to the marriage. He is arrogant beyond belief.

Be careful though, once he realises that this isn't a tantrum on your part and that you won't be reconciling, that is when he could start to escalate his behaviours and become dangerous. As he flails around for control in any way possible.

I've spent a couple of evenings reading your threads and have to say, you are amazing.

Wrote a massive post over the weekend on my phone and lost it so just updating now.

On Saturday "Sam" called to say he had spoken to exH (who had actually picked up the phone when Sam called him) who was very very down and said he had hit rock-bottom. This despite the kids being there for the day.

Sam said he thought that exH had finally realised that he had gone too far and that it was time to be more reasonable with regard to me.

For some reason Sam then encouraged him to call me to talk things over to try to come to an agreement (about money among other things).

OTOH he then told me to be very careful if I DID speak to exH because he could easily record me and use it against me. I said I was nowhere near ready to speak to him on the phone and that even the thought of seeing him was enough to give me nightmares for a week.

In the end I decided to preempt any possible phone call from exH by sending a brief reply to his financial proposal - I thanked him for his offer and said I would speak to my lawyer and get back to him within the week. Then I said that Sam had told me he wanted to speak to me on the phone, but that right now I would prefer to keep all communication written as certain things I have said have already been used against me, notably in the appel of the judge's decision.

No reply.

Then this morning an email from the other friend who visited exH regularly in hospital, saying that exH was very low and that it was partly because of the restrictive contact with the kids.

He asked me if I wouldn't consider giving greater access at the appeal hearing.

What's very frustrating is that really it would be better for everyone if the kids could start spending the occasional Saturday night with their dad and for contact to gradually increase depending on his mental health.

But right now, all I hear from people is how badly he is doing, which doesn't make me want to increase contact at all for the kids' sake.

Also, exH might be low and sad and ready to compromise at the moment, but as others have said, he could snap right back into angry and abusive and vindictive in a heartbeat and use any "softening" on my part against me in court.

It's so frustrating, but I just can't trust him at all, and I think the others find this hard to see (although "Sam" did say that exH was calculating and manipulative).

TBH I'm not changing anything until the appeal is over and done with, and then we'll see once we have a stable legal framework in place for visiting rights etc. He may get them extended by the court anyway although for peace of mind I would rather they stayed the same which gives me something to fall back on if he goes off the rails again.

I think it's ok to leave it to the professionals at this stage.
Friends feel for him which is natural but they also feel the need to warn you which means they don't actually think he's back to his old self.
He actually just wants everything back to normal and has realised it's not happening. (Don't forget he didn't mind making you sad for years.)

The children aren't there to prop him up!

Sorry - I mean it is not the role of the children to prop him up!

You are 100% right to stick to the court agreement. WTF has access arrangements got to do with his friend, I would tell him to keep his beak out.

As you say if he is feeling down and very low, the last thing you should do is give him more access. If he was well and being reasonable of course he should have the kids overnight etc, but he isn’t, has he done the psychiatrist report yet? Has he shown himself to be capable?

The reason he is now low and sad is probably because it is all getting very real and you refused his order to get in the house to talk. He knows his hold on you has gone.

KOKO

Oh Jamais your friends are starting to fall for the next act. You're going to have to stay strong. Just remind yourself and your friends of a couple of things.

1. Your dcs must not ever be used as pawns in your battles, or his therapy for his illness or his prize. He does not get to see them more because he is very down. He should see them less while he unwell until he is well enough to be the positive, reliable and constant parent they deserve.

2, You have a hard won legal agreement based on professional advice about when the dcs can have contact with him, As soon as you choose to go against this and be lenient then you are being irresponsible. (And a third) 3. It's about what the dcs need and that's conistency. It's been less than 6 months with this routine. Everyone needs to settle for a while before more changes.

Courage!

There will be plenty of time for the process to change

Long time lurker - you need to make it clear to the friends that it is not a child’s job to make the parent feel better. It’s the parents job to get better for the child’s sake.
You are doing wonderfully @jamaisjedors. Your boys are so fortunate to have you in their corner.
I never feel I have anything additional to add the great advice you get on here. But this next move has posed me off enough to post! Never forget who he is & what he is capable of. Your friends clearly don’t know.
Keep being brilliant x

Nothing to add to @Haffdonga's excellent post.

This is very tough for you. KOKO.

I absolutely agree with haffdonga's post regarding the children.

I also think it is a very good idea to keep all contact, especially discussions about finances and the children, in written format. You will then have a record of what was said and will have time to consider your responses to him, or non response.

Hafffdonga's post is excellent.

I'm worried about the judgement of friend number #2 (not Sam). It is very inappropriate for him to be pressuring you in the context of the upcoming hearing -- particularly when you are trying to protect your DC from your ex's poor mental state and the reason friend is pressuring you is BECAUSE of ex's poor mental state. Friend's energy would be better spent encouraging your ex to heal himself and then come for increased access once he can show is in a good place and able to parent well. All this to say, I would be careful around this friend. It sounds like he has chosen a side (and it isn't you or your DC!)

He’s using the woe is me card to recruit them into pressuring you to speak to him and change the contact arrangements. He’s manipulating them, so they are in fact acting like flying monkeys.

Tell these friends, that any contact will be via email and that you will adhere to what the professionals have advised you to do. I would also gently remind them, that you are healing yourself but your children come first. So you are putting your feelings aside, to create a positive role model for them. They need to be told he needs to be doing that himself.

I’d also be very wary of telling them anything that you don’t want repeated back to him.

Well done on your email!

How annoying that these ‘friends’ are more concerned for your ex than what is best for the kids. If a judge has decided he isn’t ready for more access then surely the judge having been presented all evidence has made the best choice for the kids??

Ignore the flying monkeys and stick to the current arrangements otherwise ex may use it against you

Out of interest, do either Sam or other friend have their own children?

Thanks for the support and reassurance that I'm doing the right thing.

Both friends have their own kids. Their wives have a different view and have been more supportive on the "protecting the kids" front (rather than protecting ex).

I will email back the 2nd friend and remind him that it is not the kids role to cheer their dad up, it is up to their dad to sort himself out.

I also agree that exh is feeling very down because he is feeling sorry for himself and has realised (is starting to realise) that the separation is real.

I'm not sure that seeing the kids more or less is making any difference, Sam spoke to him at the weekend while he had the kids and that was when he said he had hit rock bottom.

Yet again jamais you show how on the ball you are.

I wonder if possibly the DC don't fill the "gap" of you not being there - he reigns in his bad behaviour of sulking and tantrums with them and they are interested in friends and getting on with their lives. Is he mourning the loss of his whipping boy/narcissistic supply and knows of his behaviour is awful towards the boys he could lose them altogether...

Ex is allowed to have his pity party, not fair of him to expose the DC to it and it changes nothing.

KOKO

Another to agree with Haffdonga. They are falling for his manipulation and he's telling them that if only he had xyz everyone would be happy etc. You will have to stay strong as unfortunately your friends have to be reminded of your boundaries. It's unbelievable that Sam thought it was a good idea for him to call you. I'm sure he's doing his best, but he really does need to see the full picture, which is your ex is still a risk and you need help with protection, not him encouraging interaction!

You are doing the right thing. For your DC and you. This is a ramping up of his manipulation to try and regain control. He will continue and recruit others if he can.

It is difficult I know, especially as the discussion is focused around the DC but his issues/problems are now nothing to do with you anymore and your friends should not be coming to you on his behalf, or even simply to pass on information. It's hard partly because of the controlling dynamic, partly because of the DC and partly because you still care/worry about him. Consciously making yourself break the pattern might help here. Fake it till you make it.

It might be that you will be able to have a cooperative relationship later on. But your previous relationship is over. Children notwithstanding. You both need to get on with your own lives, leaving the other to do the same. Which tbh I found difficult to come to terms with despite the abusive nature of the relationship. Or maybe because of it. But it really helped. Both my ex and me and because of that my DC. And probably mutual friends too who still thought of us as "together" if you get my meaning.

I would be inclined to say to friends saying these things 'So you're telling me he's more depressed and his mental health is worse, but you think the kids should spend more time with him. How will that benefit them?' Hard then to avoid admitting that such contact would be only to benefit him which as pp have said is not how it should be.

I think that it is time now to draw up a different contractual agreement with your friends now as your divorce enters a new phase.

You have very a clear and strong sense of what is right for your DCs. You have a firm legal access agreement to stick to. If your DH wants to change this he needs to go through the proper channels rather than this emotionally manipulated pity filter system he has created.

You have finite emotional energy that has been drained negatively by your DH for years. You need to conserve, restore and redirect your mental energy for your DCs and yourself - do not spend it on him.

Whilst you are preoccupied with whatever micro bomb he has delivered via friends to confuse, distract and derail you - you are missing moments of growth, rest, recovery, warmth and joy with your DCs and family and friends. You cannot be in two emotional places at once so you need to actively choose your path.

I would not be giving your DH oxygen or headspace. He is still dominating and manipulating you. You need to slam the door shut, bolt it and out wet towels under the cracks to stop him polluting your life.

What consumes you, controls you. This is all triggering. So you need to tell family and friends that you do not want to hear about him - that your lives are separated - and he has official channels to communicate through if he wishes.

With these friends I would thank them for their support to date but explain that you need to draw different boundaries and terms of reference for your ongoing friendship.

Your new life needs energy and focus to be properly attuned to your DCs to find calmness, peace and joy from all of this. This means not being triggered and emptying your precious emotional reserves on him. Get him out of your head.

Are you having any professional emotional support yourself?

Good luck I know it's hard but worth it,
It will be worth it. He is doing all this to try and still be in control. In the end there will be no where for him to go and you will win.
Sorry you are having to go through all this. X