Is a man who's been violent always like a dog that's bitten?

[GilbertMarkham]

Has anyone ever had a long term relationship in which a man who was violent (during a time of extreme conflict for example) not be violent again?

Or are they like a dog who's bitten - only fit for the relationship equivalent of being put down.

How do you think he'll be with an arsy, argumentative, won't let it go, teenager in a few years time?

A good point worth considering.

GilbertMarkham No one just changes. It takes some kind of realization, and then sustained work over a long period of time.

Has your partner had any relevant counselling?
Have you had any counselling?

OP, what do you think is the answer?

There are only two - he gets "help" to try to solve this issue; and I have real doubts over the effectiveness of that, or we separate.

I should ideally work on my inability into let anything go, including when someone is asking me to, of even temporarily ... But I don't consider that the main problem.

It's a strange one; because it has been twice about 15 years ago. And now something much 'milder' but that makes me uncomfortable and angry, all this time later.

15 years ago we were caught in a cycle of escalating arguments and conflict for a while about a couple if things, including me cheating early in the relationship.

The last two years and a bit has been stress non stop tbh (I don't think you ever really get the impact of a baby, no matter what you're told, until you have one .. esp one who doesn't sleep well at all.

Btw I don't think he should have anger management stuff; I don't believe in anger management, I believe someone ultimately gives themselves permission to do something (even in a rage) and it's that that I worry is insurmountable. Does he fundamentally believe he had the right to use his strength and size against anyone including a woman when push really comes to shove?
Odd thing is that doesn't tally with anything else I know about his attitude to women or relationships. He's not sexist, not chauvinist, no double standards, he's taken a lot if shit behaviour from me, he dies a huge amount with our DD, he's not a bully in any other way.

Wtf .

*does

Another option is for you to separate and have therapy, and say that you will only consider getting back with him if he completes therapy for his anger.
Don't stay while he does therapy. You may not believe in anger management therapy, but that doesn't make you right.

Has your partner had any relevant counselling?
Have you had any counselling?

No and no.

I obviously raised what he did 15 yrs ago more than once since and he said he was sorry, that it was wrong, he deeply regretted it etc.

At the weekend after the argument, he said that he was exhausted, stressed, insulted and angry at some things I'd said during the argument, had asked me to leave it alone/stop it repeatedly and that he lost it ... That he is much better than he was when he was young in terms of controlling his temper and had done so for years but that there is still that instinct (?) when he is pushed beyond limit.. and that we are therefore a bad combination because I can't let an argument go and keep escalating it.

When I pointed out that many people/women can be like that, does he really think he's not going to have similar conflict occasy (and it is occasional with me) with another woman, has he heard our two female neighbours in full flight against their partners etc. ... He said maybe he said in a sort of resigned way should be single then. We discussed splitting and both got upset. By that point we had been discussing it for quite a while, and had to stop to feed the toddler.

You may not believe in anger management therapy, but that doesn't make you right.

What I mean is that I think anger management/anger problens are bullshit.

What they are is value problems - I agree with the Bancroft book in that.

What I find so odd is that that, however, doesn't tally with any other knowledge I have of his values and character.

and that we are therefore a bad combination because I can't let an argument go and keep escalating it.

When I pointed out that many people/women can be like that, does he really think he's not going to have similar conflict

You’ll ignore me but anyway.

It sounds like he is wanting to separate and you are trying to convince him not to. His suggestion that you are a bad combination doesn’t mean he is wanting to be with other women. Just that he recognises you two aren’t good together.

Uncomfortable. Intimidated. You might be a bolshy stubborn woman and whatever, but he's scared you a bit, hasn't he?

I've never been scared of him. When someone acts aggressively or intimidatingly toward me, it angers me at the time and I feel more anger and resentment after the event. I have always been like that - I remember being hit as a small child at school by the headmaster and feeling angry; really angry and indignant.

He ended it as such by going into another room and closing the door, I would have just kept arguing tbh.

had asked me to leave it alone/stop it repeatedly and that he lost it ... That he is much better than he was when he was young in terms of controlling his temper and had done so for years but that there is still that instinct (?) when he is pushed beyond limit.. and that we are therefore a bad combination because I can't let an argument go and keep escalating it.

All your fault then?

Could you not just have kept your fucking mouth shut before I break it for you?

Been there honey. He won't change. Why would he. It's your mouth that's the problem. You will change. Because it's your mouth that's the problem.

Except it's not.

When I pointed out that many people/women can be like that, does he really think he's not going to have similar conflict

That was not to convince him not to separate; only to point out that he's fooling himself if he thinks other women would not get into arguments sometimes. I'm not having someone talk bullshit without challenging it, whether we break up or not.

As I said, I'm a totally different person when I'm not having to fight my corner and be on the attack all the time.

Being with someone who beat you (even just once) means you're always on the attack. He'll love that. He can blame you for it.

SEVEN FUCKING years it took me to realise this bullshit. And I would consider myself a semi intelligent human being....

Children push boundaries. Not just teenagers but younger children. How will he cope with that?

What's your line that he can't cross?

I'm single now, but I have been in lovely normal relationships since 'the arsehole'. Try it sometime. You'd be surprised how different you are!

@DoTheHop

Did you miss this part.

Btw I don't think he should have anger management stuff; I don't believe in anger management, I believe someone ultimately gives themselves permission to do something (even in a rage) and it's that that I worry is insurmountable. Does he fundamentally believe he had the right to use his strength and size against anyone including a woman when push really comes to shove?

only to point out that he's fooling himself if he thinks other women would not get into arguments sometimes.

But he wasn’t even talking about being with other women. Just about separating from you.

No, I haven't missed any part.

Shouting at one another regularly isn't normal.

I thought it was normal because I grew up in an abusive household, though.

Strange how being taught that you deserve to be shouted at and hit (and being shouted at/hit/abused by a parent) means that abuse and violence within a sexual relationship doesn't seem that bad and that you probably brought it on yourself anyhow.

I disagree with DP or he disagrees with me. We talk. We don't necessarily agree at the end of it, but we don't scream, shout, chase one another down, physically intimidate or in any way threaten one another in the process. Our most spectacular argument was conducted with him standing in the middle of the kitchen whilst I stood halfway up the stairs speaking in assertive tones - the sort of volume you use to say That's Enough to two toddlers squabbling. We didn't start there, but without thinking about it, we both moved to positions where we weren't encroaching on one another's space/threatening in any way. And immediately after the exchange, we started talking at normal levels again.

Shouting and screaming at one another is not normal. Verbal violence is still violence - it hurts the ears, it can be felt if you're close enough (ex's voice was so deep and loud, you felt it slamming into your chest from 8 foot away - and he knew it).

Your parents have taught you that abuse is OK. That abuse is deserved.

It isn't. And I still think that you will be a thousand times safer without somebody who has already crossed that line and become violently abusive in your home.

Children push boundaries. Not just teenagers but younger children. How will he cope with that?

As I responded to another poster, it is a good point.

Ironically so far I've found he generally has more perspective and tolerance with our toddler than me.

Shouting at one another regularly isn't normal.

Where have I said it is?

Posters drive me bonkers in other people's threads by not reading what a poster has said, jumping in , projecting massively, assuming etc etc and it's equally if not more annoying when it's you.

When I said MN has standards that do not tally with my real life observation.of relationships, I said occasionally.

And in my relationship, it is occasional, if not rare.

Also I have said absolutely nothing about my childhood. Nothing.

I have stated note than once that the MN disconnect with real life in my observation of friends colleagues, acquaintances etc is a separate issue from the subject of this thread.

Your parents have taught you that abuse is OK. That abuse is deserved.

What the actual fk are you talking about?

Where have I said that there was any abuse in my family.

They always do it again. It might be a week later, it might be ten years but it always always happens again. And it never gets less severe - it always escalates over time.

Living with someone who has been violent is like playing catch with a live grenade.

Violence isn't an abberation, if you think about it everyone would be violent in the right circumstances. For example imagine somebody threatening the life of your children. Imagine a dog threatening the life of your children if you prefer/find it easier to imagine than you assaulting a person.

The abusive person is driven to violence because they believe it is a reasonable response to the loss of control they are experiencing in a relationship.