Is a man who's been violent always like a dog that's bitten?

[GilbertMarkham]

Has anyone ever had a long term relationship in which a man who was violent (during a time of extreme conflict for example) not be violent again?

Or are they like a dog who's bitten - only fit for the relationship equivalent of being put down.

Back on supervised access - I think that even suggesting it would result in a legal war, and would reduce our chances of co-parenting civilly (for a long time in the future) to nil.

Plus you know how it goes of one parent suggests another is unfit or unsafe for any reason - comebacks with every stupid incident you've ever been involved in with your child when they fell off/over/out of a,b and c .. bumped into a,b,and c .. I had s lot if my plate the day of a consultant appointment for DD about viral wheeze/potential asmtha (though not diagnosed now til 5) and forgot about it while in work, so he had to take her on his own; u can imagine things like that being thrown back very quickly indeed if I ever suggested he was an unsafe parent who needs supervision. It would become a shit show.

This is an interesting thread and I am enjoying the way OP expresses herself. I like her blunt irritation with MN.

I have no experience of abuse myself but I think possibly people can change. I've noticed some people in my family have become much mellower and don;t really blow up but used to have a terrible temper. Also some people can come close to being physical, so close that it is threatening, without it being repeated.

I have some/lots of questions, if the OP can be bothered and is willing to share online:

1. What abuse occured 15 years ago
2. How did you feel after?
3. Did you talk about it and was he repentent?
4. You had no fear since, until the last 2 attacks?
5. What happened in the more recent incidents - was it intimidation, aggresion?
6. Do you think he meant to be threatening?
7. What happened in the intervening 15 years when he got angry, so that you were not afraid?
8. Have you spoken to him about any of this?
9. What is your relationship like?
10. Is he controlling or abusive in other ways?

Maybe it has triggered memories that you put aside and you are now worried.

Hi OP, I'm not surprised this recent incident of him using his physicality and intimidation has kind of confirmed that seed of doubt you had about getting back with him. How gutting that must be.

Do you have any idea how he was after his violence towards you 15 years ago? What happened in the intervening time when you were apart? Did he do anything to address that tendency in himself, or do you know if he did anything similar to anyone else? I can't remember if it was once then or twice, or what you said about how he was afterwards. Do you think he justified it to himself using your behaviour to tell himself that that was the cause?

I'm just wondering what made you decide to go back to him, whether you were convinced he'd understood it was wrong and should never happen again...that he'd learnt how to deal with himself. Or did you feel that you'd both matured and would now be able to treat each other with respect?

Because now you have a child together, obviously the most basic requirement - for everyone in the household to treat each other (and that includes speaking to each other) with respect at all times, is what the aim has to be.

It sounds like you both could do with working on that. There is nothing to justify him being violent. Clearly. But there are other behaviours that are also not justifiable.

Does he also not trust himself? Or does he blame you? Does he know why he does it?
Sorry...20 questions!

I don’t think he would need supervised access and I don’t think you do either OP? (Maybe I’m wrong?)

I think the soup that is created by combining the ingredients of your personalities is somewhat toxic and as your daughter grows will have an effect on her. And I think even if he never physically assaults you again- the physical behaviour from last weekend will reoccur. It may be rare. It may become more frequent. But I think it’s likely to happen again. It’s up to you whether you want to stay knowing it will because it will be rare or whether that just isn’t something you’re willing to accept at all anymore.

I think you both need to do some work individually on the fiery aspects of your personalities that lead to these altercations. I know usually it doesn’t go as far as that but the behaviours are still happening that are risking that outcome (iyswim)

And I reckon that separately- you’ll both probably be providing a far more peaceful environment for your DD and yourselves actually.

WRT teens being a nightmare- yes- they are and can push buttons you don’t even know you have. But I think your DH would probably be less likely to explode with her if he isn’t also battling you too. If his home is only about him and her there will be far less tension to begin with. And probably with some years of being alone behind him he may find his own ways of parenting her that work for them by the time she is a teenager. I find it a lot easier to parent as a lone parent than I did with a partner in a dysfunctional relationship. Removing that very thick layer of mess made things so much easier in terms of parenting.

Ultimately I do think all 3 of you will be better off if you and DH aren’t in a relationship. And you both do some proper work on yourselves.

1. What abuse occured 15 years ago

Pushing/flinging me during an argument, holding me down during an argument. We were arguing a lot at that time in the relationship due to two issues. In retrospect I was definitely more at fault than him and my behaviour was immature, bratty, selfish and lacking in empathy.

2. How did you feel after?

It's so long ago now I can't accurately remember. I think angry and also that it couldnt happen again. He "agreed" and nothing like that did id he didn't do anything like that from that point til we finished the relationship about 5 years later.

3. Did you talk about it and was he repentent?

Sorry sort if answered that above - yes and yes.

4. You had no fear since, until the last 2 attacks?

No. As I said there was about 5 yrs after that before we finished the relationship. Then we were not together for 2 or more years, then got back together 6/7 years ago.

They haven't been attacks as such.

5. What happened in the more recent incidents - was it intimidation, aggresion?

First time, aboutbavyear ago - in fact I now realise it's well over a year - he blocked my exit from the kitchen. I believe he wanted to stop me from "following" him out into another room and continuing the escalating argument. He pushed against a door to prevent me opening it.

Weekend past - he loomed over/squared up to me briefly. Also sort of stopped me from going back into sitting room where he went and closed door shortly after.

6. Do you think he meant to be threatening?

He meant to be domineering, maybe threatening, not sure

7. What happened in the intervening 15 years when he got angry, so that you were not afraid?

If we had any arguments we resolved them the usual way eg decisions/agreement/laughed after a while sometimes/let it go, whatever

8. Have you spoken to him about any of this?

About 15 yrs ago, yes - a few times. A year or so ago, can't remember. This weekend, talked about if afterward when things cooled down. Did not say anywhere near all wanted to though (but then I never shut up).

9. What is your relationship like?

On the whole I would say good.

Our sex life is MIA but that is another thread.

10. Is he controlling or abusive in other ways?

No.

Thanks for the answers.

I think it is more complex than people will often label it. If you feel it is abusive then that is important, intuition is key. However, it is not the steretoypical beating and controlling behaviour that is often accompanied by the dog tasted blood narrative, in my opinion.

Perhaps you are picking up on escalating pressure as your circumstances will remain in a similar position for the forseeable future and perhaps the manner in which you both handle conflicts is worsening.

I think this situation can both change. You will need to talk to him and explain your worries and how you feel. I am sure he will take that on board. Then perhaps in the future if he becoems domineering, he may back off if you tell him how you feel.

Perhaps this is about power and control in the arguments, as maybeyou dislike it when he walks away?

As I say I have no experience in this, nor in relationships either, but perhaps your answers have helped shed more light on this matter.

Have you come to any conclusion yet?

It does sound to me like you won't leave him in peace after an argument and keep on and on at him? Is that correct? If that's correct, I can actually understand him trying to put some space between you. He could just put his earphones in and ignore you or something, but your behaviour on this thread would suggest to me that you would probably stand over him, remove his earphones and continue shouting. I think you need to look at your own behaviour in all this, not just his.

And before anyone piles on here saying that I'm victim blaming here, I'm not. But if it were a woman posting that during an argument, her husband goes on and on and won't stop and she tried to shut herself in another room to prevent him coming in and berating her, I think we all know what we'd be saying? That she was in an abusive relationship, agreed? Why is it different for this partner trying to remove himself from the barrage of abuse I presume he's getting?
I don't think it's acceptable that you seem to feel that by admitting to being a fiery person, that gives you carte blanche to behave threateningly or intimidatingly to your partner. It's not an excuse.

And I'm drawing all these conclusions and extrapolating psychological claptrap from the following:

"he blocked my exit from the kitchen. I believe he wanted to stop me from "following" him out into another room and continuing the escalating argument. He pushed against a door to prevent me opening it.

Weekend past - he loomed over/squared up to me briefly. Also sort of stopped me from going back into sitting room where he went and closed door shortly after."

Either which way you call it, whether the OP is the abuser or her partner is, it is not a household I would allow to mind my child. Therefore, I don't think it's a safe environment for the child.

OP, I've read this full thread through in 20 minutes and a condensed version of your anger is not pretty to read. The rage in you jumps off the screen. There might be reasons for that, but you definitely need to address them. I would strongly advise counselling for your self professed 'fiery' nature.

To state the obvious, a nearly adult child is challenging in a very different way to a toddler - they cannot be controlled or distracted in the same ways, and having patience with small children does not translate to managing older ones. With you, he'll escalate to physicality - with an older child or teen he might too. (Especially if there's something underlying all this outer civilisation that allows him to be violent towards the women in his family.)

Clearly supervised access etc are unlikely in your case in a decade's time, but there's a huge difference between living together 24/7 and whatever other residency arrangements you could have in place. Having a safe place, assuming you're able to provide such, most of the time or 50% of the time is better than living 100% of the time under threat. (Part of the stressors in the relationship would also be removed by having breaks from each other).

Leopards don't change their spots.

Do you have any idea how he was after his violence towards you 15 years ago?

We continued I a relationship for about 5 yrs more, he didn't behave like that again.

What happened in the intervening time when you were apart?

He had a shortish relationship that finished due to incompatibility and his lack of commitment (according to him, I e never met or spoken to her) and some short flings.

(I had a year and a half relationship).

Did he do anything to address that tendency in himself

Not that I know of/I don't think so.

*or do you know if he did anything similar to anyone else?

No, I don't think so. But I don't know/haven't spoken to any if them. From knowing him a fairly long time, I'd say it's unlikely.

I can't remember if it was once then or twice, or what you said about how he was afterwards. Do you think he justified it to himself using your behaviour to tell himself that that was the cause?

Twice.

He was remorseful - when I pursued a discussion and apology and verbal agreement that it could not happen again. I felt like he would not have discussed it had I not pursued that.

I'm just wondering what made you decide to go back to him, whether you were convinced he'd understood it was wrong and should never happen again

I had a reservation about it. It was not a reservation about it happening again. Naively or not I did not think it would. I suppose I'd had 5 yrs without a repeat before we finished. It was a reservation on principle about getting back together with a man who had assaulted me/been violent towards me.

Yes, I thought he knew it was wrong, did not want to and wouldn't repeat it.

..that he'd learnt how to deal with himself.

Yes I thought he'd grown up, wised up etc.

Or did you feel that you'd both matured and would now be able to treat each other with respect?

That too, I thought we'd grown up and learned lessons.

Because now you have a child together, obviously the most basic requirement - for everyone in the household to treat each other (and that includes speaking to each other) with respect at all times, is what the aim has to be.

*Does he also not trust himself?

I don't know - it will be part of the discussion I have with him when we get a baby sitter and I've collated my thoughts on this.

Or does he blame you?

He thinks my terrier, peck peck peck thing escalates arguments. Beyond that, I'm. It sure, I will be asking.

Does he know why he does it?

All I'vee had to date is that he's aware he's always had a potentially volatile element with a loss of temper etc that he feels had reduced and that he's learned to handle better the older he's got.

That does not fit for me with the "line that should not be crossed" with physical aggression or violence against a female; (temper does not pip that) and will be the main point I will be pressing in any discussion.

Do you love/like him?

I wouldn't take the risk with either a dog that bites once will find it easy to do so again same with a man

Its does sound to me like you won't leave him in peace after an argument and keep on and on at him? Is that correct?

It would be more a lack of correlation in when we consider an argument over (!)

That is somewhat tongue in cheek.

What I'm trying to say is that he would end it before I'd consider it fully discussed or resolved. On Sunday I restarted it as I didn't feel it was discussed or resolved and it escalated from there.

Do you love/like him?

Yes and yes.

With love, the sexual desire aspect has hugely declined however - though perhaps that is not uncommon in long-ish relationships.

I like most things about him and get on very well with him in most ways.

As I mentioned up thread I do feel however they he's become a harder & more arrogant character in some ways than before (in the last while since he changed career and started climbing the corporate ladder).

OP, I've read this full thread through in 20 minutes and a condensed version of your anger is not pretty to read. The rage in you jumps off the screen. There might be reasons for that, but you definitely need to address them. I would strongly advise counselling for your self professed 'fiery' nature.

Fiery (feisty to be pedantic) is only one aspect of my character, none if us are one dimensional.

I take that on board but do maintain bthst some MN posters (for reasons I've said numerous times already) would give anyone the rage. It's bad enough reading other people's threads, let alone when its yours.

Fiery, or fiesty, it's not really an attractive trait. It's certainly not acceptable to let this 'nature' of yours make your partner feel he needs to go to another room to escape you and I wonder where your dd is in all this and how she feels 'when Mummy and Daddy fight'.

You need to calm it down.

Where is your daughter when you're being feisty with your partner?

Ah, sorry I hadn't understood/remembered that you didn't leave him after/about the incident 15 years ago.

I think you are going to have to go on your gut feeling about this.

It seems that you both may have issues which could be addressed in order to get things onto a healthy level. But that comes down to whether you both actually want to address these things, and think it's worth stepping outside your comfort zones and finding out what you can do about them even if you (both) have preconceived ideas about therapy etc not being a way to do that.

I'm not suggesting you need therapy for his violent episodes. But for your own issues. Maybe you're happy with yourself the way you are, but maybe you'd actually like to be able to be more in control of the way you do things, (instead of reactive) and be able to make conscious decisions to handle conflict differently. I'm not saying you need to do this to stop him being a bully or getting physical, that is of course his responsibility, and his alone. But maybe for yourself, for your own way of handling yourself within a relationship, would you prefer if it was different? Sorry, I'm aware you weren't asking for comment on your own behaviour, and also that whatever that is doesn't justify him being violent and aggressive.

But (and I am a woman so maybe it's different, not sure) if, during an argument that I wanted to leave or pause, by getting out of the room, if the other person followed me and was insisting we carry on, or haranguing me, I would want to stop them doing that. And if my being physical could stop them then I would be. Jamming something up against a door or whatever. (If he was pushing on a door to stop you getting in to the same room, that suggests that you were also putting physical pressure on the door, in order to follow him to continue the argument. But maybe I've misunderstood how that went)

If you each think that actually you are (individually) fine as you are, ( I mean he thinks he is fine, you think you are fine) neither want therapy or to actually change yourselves or your behaviour, then perhaps your thought that you might not be compatible is correct. It seems a volatile combination with things as they are. But I'm sure you could both change if you a) wanted to and b) put your minds to it.