Is a man who's been violent always like a dog that's bitten?

[GilbertMarkham]

Has anyone ever had a long term relationship in which a man who was violent (during a time of extreme conflict for example) not be violent again?

Or are they like a dog who's bitten - only fit for the relationship equivalent of being put down.

@GilbertMarkham - do you think your partner would be willing to call the Respect phoneline - respectphoneline.org.uk/? It's for people who use abusive behaviours - they can signpost on to programmes to challenge and change the use of abusive behaviours, which is much better and more specialised than anger management in these cases.

But he wasn’t even talking about being with other women. Just about separating from you.

He was defining me as particularly argumentative, pedantic and unable to let things and arguments were more likely to escalate to a point where he loses his temper .. my point was that I don't know many people (women since he has relationships with women) who aren't sometimes like that, or at least v capable of haranguing etc.

It was a discussion about relationships and our characters in a relationship.

Get it?

In any case, when I started referring to arrangements if we separated,the looked sad/upset and did not want to pursue the conversation; but I'm sure you're right, as always.

*he looked

The abusive person is driven to violence because they believe it is a reasonable response to the loss of control they are experiencing in a relationship.

That's roughly what Bancroft says - and I agree. Which means it's a value issue. And can anyone's core values really be changed?

I must emphasise that is my problem with this - I do think I should learn not to be a dog with a bone, but I don't think that's the fundamental problem here.

(Before I get jumped all over by certain posters).

@Tarttlet

I will look into it and maybe suggest it, thank you.

I tend to think therapy and all that jazz is bullshit though, can you really change someone ... Back to the original question.

Based on the information you have shared, I would lean towards your partner's position that maybe you're not a safe partnership. Whilst on the one hand you can say it's not a regular occurrence so maybe it's not so bad, the knock on effect of irregular potentially violent flareups is that a child loses their stability/security because they never know when it might happen. It's always lingering in the background even if it's only in the foreground occasionally. And that's a different beast when you have no power to extricate yourself from the situation.

I also agree with your comment about violence being more of a values issue rather than an anger issue.

Your apparent suggestion that you effectively drive him to it makes me uncomfortable. If he wasn't violent and didn't feel entitled on some level to use violence then there wouldn't be anything you could do to drive him to it (genuine self defence excluded).

This stuff isn't black and white. We only have limited information to comment on, so observations, weightings, interpretations are going to be variable. Although frankly you often get the same mismatch in verbal communication.

You have quite an aggressive posting style. I am a bit baffled as to why you think you'd be able to create constructive dialogue, or encourage people to be helpful or patient, from such an aggressive position, launching into diatribes and then telling people they're not allowed to comment on what you've dredged up.

If you think your aggressiveness (because it's certainly not assertiveness) is contributing to volatility in your life (by which I mean avoidable conflict being created, not violent reactions) then maybe it's worth working on. However, the way he responds to that from you is his issue and I expect, as you observed, would be the same with any woman who was "challenging" him. Arguments don't need to escalate and that's not a pleasant environment, but him "losing his temper" shouldn't result in violence.

And no, I don't consider myself perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

Your family taught you that in their attitude towards you - the bit where you say that they could understand how you'd drive somebody round the bend. Shown by they way you speak about yourself.

'Having a shouty argument a few times a year' is where you refer to a regular verbal fight.

You shouldn't feel the need to fight/argue/win/be right all the time. The tone of your responses here gives the impression that you are taking disagreement (in this case, that it isn't normal to have fights, that it isn't reasonable that you've 'made' somebody that angry) as a direct attack.

Is there any time that you do feel relaxed and protected and safe? Or are you constantly on guard? It sounds to me that, whether you realise it or not, those incidences where you were the victim of domestic abuse have left you never quite feeling safe. That you're always on high alert for trouble, wherever it comes from, whether it's at home or online. That it could happen again. Which it could.

It's not a good place to be.

@GilbertMarkham people change if they want to change, and if they're willing to face what they've done and be honest about why. Violent men can and do change, but they have to be motivated to do so. It's hard enough for people who don't use violence to face up to the fact that they're lazy, or that they are selfish (I think we all find that kind of self-examination uncomfortable!!), let alone for someone to face up to the reasons why they feel that it's ok to be violent towards the person they love.

PS Ignore WireBrush's bitch-ploppings.

Page 6 and she's still going, maybe she'll get distracted by some other poor fkr's thread.

I do believe people can change themselves with work and potentially (the right kind of) input from others. I don't believe people can change others who aren't already actively working towards and committed to making changes themselves.

Whether things end up looking how you hoped or imagined at the end of that is another question.

Your family taught you that in their attitude towards you - the bit where you say that they could understand how you'd drive somebody round the bend. Shown by they way you speak about yourself.

That was not childhood. You have made numerous statements (assumptions) without reading, or at least clarifying, what I said, and launched into psychoanalysis about my childhood. I wasn't referring to anything in my childhood; how could my family members make droll statements about me as a relationship partner when I was child?! That wouldn't happen, or of it did it would be extremely weird..

@Tarttlet can you elaborate?
How do you know they can and do change?
Have there been long term studies etc... ?
(Genuinely interested) and even if they’re changed can a woman ever be assured this is the case?
I was certain a man had changed . It took 20 (yes! ) 20 years for his true colours to show. And my goodness what true colours they were. Previous partner gave the warning... I honestly (naively, then ) believed she just pushed his buttons... I could never in my wildest dreams have imagined the way he turned like a vicious dog. But it came to me as it came to the others . It took time, but it came.

You told us when you said your father thought it was your fault. I can't be arsed looking back enough to quote you, but you told us that your father said it was your fault.

The tone of your responses here gives the impression that you are taking disagreement (in this case, that it isn't normal to have fights, that it isn't reasonable that you've 'made' somebody that angry) as a direct attack.

The tone of my responses to some posters reflects my frustration and irritation with a particular breed of MN poster whom I've observed on other op's threads and now mine whose posts I find presumptuous, aggressive, lacking in empathy, combative, dictatorial, judgemental, often massively projecting, very often obviously skim reading and not bothering to read and understand before announcing their edicts etc etc. In many cases it is counter productive & unhelpful. There are posters who don't post like that, noone has to.

Look I get it’s easier to create a baddie on this thread to distract from the reality of your situation and avoid having to process what pretty much everyone on this thread is saying. That’s fine- make me the baddie if you want. But address your situation honestly. You don’t have to address it here in this thread but you do need to do it IRL. For your child at very least.

I don't imagine for a minute that you suddenly transformed into the person you have described yourself as on the day of your 18th birthday - for your family to be able to say that about you as an adult (or for you to have internalised that identity), I believe that they had been giving you the exact same message as a child.

Could it have been phrased as 'You're just like me'? You've said that your mother's behaviour is 'tolerated' by your father. As though she has no agency over how she behaves, he has to accept it/she won't change, so that means if you're like it, you won't ever change?

In any case, it still sounds like a miserable existence to have that fear and the belief that you've done something to deserve just because it's How You Are always there. Or that you have to tear apart anything that you disagree with (for fear you might lose? Being wrong isn't a sign of weakness any more than being right at all costs is a sign of strength).

It's a lot nicer outside of that sort of dynamic. Far less stressful for a start - and at least you wouldn't have the underlying threat of violence to contend with each time you're unhappy about something.

Your intelligence is obvious and it will help route you towards a possible solution with a man who is probably not the best emotional match for you.
However, your arrogance is childish and exasperating but I do wish you the best and hope there is something to be salvaged from this.
People are trying to help, not bully, dont dismiss their answers out of hand. They have taken time to listen and read your posts, that should not be treated with such high handedness.

You told us when you said your father thought it was your fault. I can't be arsed looking back enough to quote you, but you told us that your father said it was your fault.

Nope.

You couldn't be arsed reading them in the first place so why would you be arsed going back to read them.

Why bother posting either.

They have taken time to listen and read your posts, that should not be treated with such high handedness.

Anyone who actually has, I have responded to politely.

Long before I posted this thread, the behaviour of a section of MN posters has frustrated and irritated me on behalf of the op's in those threads; that has come out here.

That’s fine- make me the baddie if you want

That wasn't my comment, it was another poster's. Your behaviour was obvious to them.

And the minor irritant that you represent does not in any way distract me from absorbing and processing all the posts on this thread; but thanks for your directive (and for your moderate, empathy-laden, non-presumptious posts).

Well good luck OP.

@Thetellyisjelly

Fk, that is depressing.