Where can I find a man with exceptional relationship skills?

[changeling82]

I'm 38 and have been online dating now for over 10 years. In that time I've met around 150 men and chatted with countless more but in my experience, the vast majority simply do not have the relationship skills needed to make a satisfying and happy relationship viable. This has also been my experience with the men I've met in real life. They're all curiously lacking in the required skills.

I recently had a look to see if there had been any studies done that had found a massive imbalance in relationship skills between men and women and lo and behold there's a mountain of stuff that more or less confirms that my experiences are typical of most women's. In fact, one study that I read recently more or less said that only a tiny number of women ever find fulfillment and contentment in heterosexual relationships with men and that these women were with men who were described as "exceptional". This is because men are socialised to do vastly less emotion work than women despite high levels of emotion work being the key to making your partner happy in a relationship. In fact, single, childless women almost always come out as happier than their married counterparts even when they admit to being desperately lonely and stigmatised on account of not having a partner. It's all just so depressing as this tallies with my experiences. I'm depressed and lonely but know I would simply be more depressed and more lonely in a typical relationship.

So I need to work out how to go about finding exceptional men in significant quantities (as when you find one you're not necessarily going to be mutually attracted or compatible). I read that only 1 in 10 books on relationship skills are read by men but how could I go about finding these men who are at least interested in relationships and open to learning? And does anyone know anywhere where men with good relationship skills might be likely to hang out online?

I really want to have children and not end up hating the person I have them with. All suggestions would be incredibly welcome!

Well. I found mine in the pub.

You might be right that the ‘vast majority’ of the 150 men you’ve auditioned were a bit shit, but you only need one.

Seriously you're over thinking this to a level that will keep you single for ever. I'm actually thinking you're having a laugh with your post.

Millions of people are happily married, in happy relationships, so I think your research is a bit skewed, don't you?

I should point out that have met men with exceptional relationships before, sorry if that wasn't communicated, but very few and it hasn't worked out with them for other reasons (one sided attraction, alcohol issues, them being abusive etc)....

But the research isn't skewed - that's the point of it being research Bluntness, no? Most women report being unhappy in their relationships and women in this country divorce men at twice the rate men divorce women despite women having far more to lose in terms of quality of life, income etc. In the states women divorce men at four times the rate that men divorce women. And those who stay married report very low levels of happiness..

• that I have met men with exceptional relationship skills before...

I found my man on Tinder, and he is now my best friend/lover who would do anything for me and vise versa. I would even consider saving him over the dog in a fire .

I didn't have any expectations when I met him. I just fancied a date coz it had been a while. I do consider myself very lucky after kissing too many frogs, but there really are nice guys out there so don't give in if it's what you want. I was also very happy single for years before I met him, I had my life set for the single career life, own home and was about to attempt single mum by choice options.

He has a brother who's single so there is at least another gent out there haha!

Thanks returntostudy but the issue isn't a lack of nice men - there are plenty of those! I want someone who can hold a balanced conversation and pick up on my social cues when I need reassurance, a bit of sympathy etc. I've met so many nice men that simply can't do these things.

Define 'relationship skills' and define criteria for 'exceptional'

I think you are right OP. I found an exceptional one on OKcupid a few years ago. He’s quite unusual. Doesn’t really like many men. Doesn’t get misogyny. Has a few friends who are mostly women as he relates better to women. I would say he’s a feminist. Hangs out on Twitter rather than Reddit if you know what I mean. Very intelligent and politically minded. Has had a difficult life and is very empathetic, kind. and self reflective as a result. Also a big animal lover, which I think is a good sign. I think chat online to people with similar interests and outlook to you. Don’t lower your standards. Not worth it. The more specific you are the more likely you are to find what you want.

I understand exactly what you mean. And the 'happily' marrieds may be happy with the status quo of doing the vast majority of emotional labour. Idk, OP, maybe look for a relationships therapist to date

@changeling82 so you want a man to meet your needs, what needs are you meeting of theirs? Relationships are never perfect it's all about balance and compromise. It's a partnership not a one way street. If your not happy with compromise maybe you are best of being single.

pick up on my social cues when I need reassurance, a bit of sympathy etc.

So, a mind reader then

Honestly, just get better at saying what you mean and asking directly for what you want / setting boundaries.

Sorry to be harsh but if you are still single at 38 the chances are your "relationship skills" aren't as good as you think. Change what you're doing if you want a different result and all that.

I want someone who can hold a balanced conversation and pick up on my social cues when I need reassurance, a bit of sympathy etc

But OP, that doesn't sound like you're after someone with specific relationship skills who's read relationship books.

What you're describing is the kind of thing that comes over time when two people care about each other and have worked out how to communicate effectively with each other (and it may well involve you being more explicit about your feelings too, as you can't expect people to be psychic).

It sounds to me like you're wanting to jump straight to the solid relationship phase and are possibly dismissing potential partners at the dating stage for not knowing you well enough.

Returntostudy what makes you think I'm not meeting their needs? I've never had a man come to me complaining about unmet needs and when I've asked them what they felt could be improved in our relationships they've more or less to a fault said they couldn't think of anything. Several have begged to get back with me.

And thanks Booberella but I've had many men fall in love me over the years and it's almost always me that ends things. And no, reading social cues is not mind reading! Do you not know what social cues are? All my female friends can read them!

And unfortunately I've tried saying what I want in black and white ("ask me more questions so we talk about me as much as we talk about you" etc). It doesn't work. They don't have the skills to put it into practice and because of their male entitlement they don't think they should have to learn them for the most part. They just think they should get all the good stuff from me without giving any of it back.

I don't agree LonginesPrime. My social cues aren't particularly subtle ("I had a really awful day today and I could do with discussing it", cue man launches into a long monologue about how his day was actually really great then falls asleep without asking anything further about mine, even when I volunteer more information to try and kick start the conversation that I would like to have). And how does a man ever get to know you if he doesn't have the conversation skills to have the kind of talks that would make that possible? For the most part, for every question a man asks me I find I have to ask between 20 and 30 to keep a conversation going. I knew so much about my last ex by the time we split up but he knew almost nothing about me. I made a point of volunteering information but when it is consistently met with a complete lack of interest it wears you down.

Perhaps what you need is a woman if 5hey are so much better at these social cues.

I've thought about that actually helpful but I don't fancy them unfortunately.

But where do the emotionally intelligent men hang out? They are rare but they do exist...I thought about psychology conferences but doubt others are there to find their life partners!

And yes NameChanged - I have thought about looking among therapists but there is only one male one in my age range in my very small city and I can't figure out how I could meet him in a social setting. I also can't find him on Facebook to see if he's even already married. Probably is!

It totally depends on what you require surely.

I do not require a breadwinning alpha male who also wants to talk about his feelings and cares for my every thought.

I mostly am happy to meet someone who probably has some flaws but they are not so fundamental and incompatible with mine. I recognise that I have friends/colleagues/family for some discussions and then a possible partner for other ones. I don’t need someone who is going to cover all of my needs and desires, but some of them, yes.

I have recently met a man OLD (am same age as you) who is relatively ‘normal’ and good at conversation. He’s not my husband so I am not going to talk about all my bad days with him, I would probably choose the lighter moments to share. I think helping someone with their feelings is not the responsibility of a partner at all. And I think it really comes with deep intimacy over time which needs to build up, it isn’t going to happen very soon

I had a really awful day today and I could do with discussing it", cue man launches into a long monologue about how his day was actually really great then falls asleep without asking anything further about mine, even when I volunteer more information to try and kick start the conversation that I would like to have

I mean, this just sounds like you're dating selfish arseholes, TBH.

Your thread title says you're looking for someone exceptional, but t sounds like you haven't actually dated anyone decent if they're all a version of this example.

I know it's trite, but I'd say look for hobbies where you're more likely to find like minds. If you're into self-improvement books, then go to self-improvement seminars. It depends where you're based, but there's tons of stuff of that variety on Meetup.

I want someone who can hold a balanced conversation and pick up on my social cues when I need reassurance, a bit of sympathy etc

Do you think that there is something else that you're looking for in a man that is making it more likely that you aren't meeting anyone who can do this stuff, that you're attracted to?

I don't think finding a man who can pick up on social cues is all that hard... I mean, I have some of the best conversations that I've ever had with my fiancé and he often knows how I feel before I've put a name to it, I wouldn't swap him for the world, but he has friends who are also more than capable of picking up on cues, responding to people, having great conversations...

I mean, this just sounds like you're dating selfish arseholes, TBH.

Or this, which is much more succinct than me!

Are you dating people who perhaps have careers or lifestyles that don't lend themselves to putting in any emotional effort? Or caring about other people?

That’s the issue I think you may be under the impression that academically intelligent people will have high emotional intelligence and this is absolutely not the case. A bloke who has a normal job in a normal life is just as likely to be intelligent in all kinds of ways. You can’t assume someone who is very successful in a career got there through being empathetic in fact it’s proven that most high achieving people have low empathy and that’s what drives them!

"I had a really awful day today and I could do with discussing it", cue man launches into a long monologue about how his day was actually really great then falls asleep without asking anything further about mine, even when I volunteer more information to try and kick start the conversation that I would like to have).
Maybe just start telling the man about your day from the start, in your own monologue, rather than volunteering a couple of facts and waiting for him to drill you?

I know what you mean about some men just talking about themselves the whole time. I've personally always assumed that it's half due to me - my conversational tactic is to ask questions, not to launch into my own stories.

This idea that only a select handful of men have "relationship skills", and that you might be able to find them in a specific place is mind boggling. So a bus driver can't be as thoughtful as a psychologist, or what? Nasty.

Viviene - there are different ways to define them but the research by the Gottman Institute has been put into book form and is quite accessible so I'll go with those. In their 7 principles book they identify key skills/behaviours which are all just different aspects of emotion work:

1. Ask lots of questions (they call it "making love maps" or something cheesey!)
2. Nurture fondness and admiration
3. Respond positively to your partners "bids" (i.e. picking up on social cues and responding appropriately).
4. Let your partner influence you (show them you actually think about the things they say and think and take on board anything you learn from this)
5. Don't ignore problems - put the effort needed into communicating effectively so the ones that can be solved are solved.
6. Overcome gridlock (more communication stuff - actually asking and listening and thinking strategically to find solutions to tough problems).
7. Create shared meaning. Which involves knowing your partner on a deep level.

Exceptional? Doing all of these things most of the time! But in most of my relationships, none of these things were being done by the man and despite putting vast amounts of effort into trying to get through to them they have mostly ignored me completely.

Have you read the Rosie Project? How about devising your own questionnaire?

I don't really want to monologue at him though as I hate when they do that to me.

And I date anyone and everyone. I have no criteria other than a basic level of intelligence and self-awareness (so many men's dating profiles consist entirely of detailed descriptions of their record collections, or whatever the modern equivalent is -I'd say this is lacking awareness of how relationships work).

Of course a bus driver can be as thoughtful as a psychologist, where have I said that they can't be? But my experience backed by research shows that the majority of men lack basic relationship skills. If you're going to find someone in a tiny minority you have to think strategically about which men might be more likely to have this information than others.