Where can I find a man with exceptional relationship skills?

[changeling82]

I'm 38 and have been online dating now for over 10 years. In that time I've met around 150 men and chatted with countless more but in my experience, the vast majority simply do not have the relationship skills needed to make a satisfying and happy relationship viable. This has also been my experience with the men I've met in real life. They're all curiously lacking in the required skills.

I recently had a look to see if there had been any studies done that had found a massive imbalance in relationship skills between men and women and lo and behold there's a mountain of stuff that more or less confirms that my experiences are typical of most women's. In fact, one study that I read recently more or less said that only a tiny number of women ever find fulfillment and contentment in heterosexual relationships with men and that these women were with men who were described as "exceptional". This is because men are socialised to do vastly less emotion work than women despite high levels of emotion work being the key to making your partner happy in a relationship. In fact, single, childless women almost always come out as happier than their married counterparts even when they admit to being desperately lonely and stigmatised on account of not having a partner. It's all just so depressing as this tallies with my experiences. I'm depressed and lonely but know I would simply be more depressed and more lonely in a typical relationship.

So I need to work out how to go about finding exceptional men in significant quantities (as when you find one you're not necessarily going to be mutually attracted or compatible). I read that only 1 in 10 books on relationship skills are read by men but how could I go about finding these men who are at least interested in relationships and open to learning? And does anyone know anywhere where men with good relationship skills might be likely to hang out online?

I really want to have children and not end up hating the person I have them with. All suggestions would be incredibly welcome!

• a mediocre

It sounds to me a bit like you're looking for a partner in the same way that you might be looking for a new employee. Any chance they might feel a bit under pressure?

And also wondering if you might be taking the Mick?

Just because I'm treating this as a mostly serious discussion, doesn't mean that I don't have a sense of humour Menora. You seem determined to convince me that I'm a highly unlikeable human being and yet my funny, interesting friends and the fact that most of the men I date seem to like me would suggest I'm doing something right. I've maybe hit a nerve with you in something I've said. Because the issue isn't men not being into me however hard you try to convince me that it is.

Closetbeanmuncher - I rarely meet anyone that presents as exceptional to begin with although there have been one or two who were great conversationalists for the first couple of dates then decided they knew everything there was to know about me and didn't ask anything ever again! On the other hand, I did spend my early dating years from 17 to 27 going out with anyone who asked me and who seemed like a decent person and I never knew anyone to develop these skills if they didn't obviously have them on the first few dates. I haven't met every man in the world though clearly.

And yes, I get what some people have been saying about not expecting someone to behave like they're in a relationship immediately but I'm talking about men I've been on a few dates with as well as men I've been in relationships with for over a year (and you can certainly look out for whether they're pulling their weight in some areas right from date one - I've never known a man who just answered questions and waited to be asked more on date one to turn out to be really good at relationships in any other way).

The Rosie Project's hero ended up with a woman who didn't match his questionnaire at all. You may just need to kiss more frogs and/or have a bit of a think about whether the self-help books are written out of a pure, unsullied wish to help other people find a mate.

They aren't really written to help people find mates at all. They're written to help people stay married and help them understand how to make their partners happy. I knew what these things were before reading books - they just confirmed what I'd worked out. And they're based on tons of research into which couples end up divorcing and which ones stay together. The people who do these things simply divorce at far lower rates than the people who don't so there is something to them and I can totally get that. I would end up divorced if I got with someone who didn't do these things because I'm miserable without these things.

I think the self-improvement seminars might be the way to go LonginesPrime!

how does a man ever get to know you if he doesn't have the conversation skills to have the kind of talks that would make that possible? For the most part, for every question a man asks me I find I have to ask between 20 and 30 to keep a conversation going I think that the men you are talking about are just not interested in you. Don't start dating a man unless he shows a genuine interest in you. Showing an interest is a key and fundamental sign that there is long term relationship potential.

BTW, most of the men I have worked with have been quite emotionally intelligent (lawyers), but not necessarily guys you'd want to have a relationship with... I'd try to find someone who really digs you, is genuinely interested in you, and they will want to understand your needs, even if they are not skilled at doing so at the outset - a guy who digs you would read a relationship book for you, probably.

Sic99, no I don't think so. Most of my dates think we had an amazing time and several have said something along the lines of "I' don't need to ask you if we're having a second date, it's just obvious". Don't get me wrong, I'm nothing special in terms of looks or achievements etc. I just do what I know works in making other people feel good and I want to find someone who'll do those things for me.

Look for psychologists, therapists, poets, artists?

Koalatitive - most seem very interested in other ways though. One guy recently told me that our date was the best date he'd ever been on. I let it develop and he did ask more than most guys but it was still very very little and I did end up feeling that I knew about ten times more about him than he did about me, despite the interest shown in other ways. I really just want to feel like the man I'm with actually knows me or will know me one day. With most men I know in my heart that if I stayed with them for the rest of my life I'd still die with them not knowing very much about me at all and I find that so painful.

You thought about just going it alone? Maybe Cryos?

I’m honestly not determined to prove anything just that from this thread I can only go on my impression that you have some issues going on that I think are barriers to what you want to achieve.

I think you have some unrealistic expectations and it may be easier to try to search for all the reasons this is the fault of men as a species and not a vibe you give out, the type of men you choose to date, your dating criteria, emotional expectations etc. You come across as hard work.

Fundamentally it is not wrong to want someone to be interested in you, but if you are afraid of telling people anything for fear or being like your father, and are trying to drop social cues for them and then agitated and hurt they don’t pick up on them then one answer could be you need to be more bold and forthright?

OP, they think you are great because you are attentive to them, to their needs - because you have good social skills - they are happy having their egos attended to - the most likely explanation being that they are really just interested in themselves.

If a man is really interested in you, ie there is something about you which touches him, he will want to get to know you. Really. It is as simple as that.

If it happens you will feel it. You don't want someone who just has good social skills - you want someone who really likes you and who wants to get to know you. Someone who notices things about you which most people don't notice.

I suspect that the clue lies in what you have said about your father.

Are you afraid that any man you to have a relationship with will turn out to be like your father - talking and talking at you and never asking anything about you?

I second a poster's suggestion to have some therapy and look into yourself a bit more, rather than finding fault in all these men.

HappyHedgehog247 - not sure artists and poets would be my people but I'll consider them. I'd say psychologists and therapists sounds more promising but where do they all hang out when they're off duty?! I could go to conferences but it's unlikely you would get a date from a single meet even if you were bold enough to ask for one!

I’m probably projecting a little as my mum is a bit like you, she places a lot of importance on what she would like people to do or say based on her own behaviour and needs.
She spends a lot of time investing in dropping subtle social cues and language as she seems to find it almost impossible to say what she is actually thinking. She also is hurt a lot because people don’t notice them and often claims she feels left out and ignored. I pretty much always get it wrong with her because I don’t notice all the cues in the right way as I would be expecting someone to just speak up. I also do ignore them sometimes because I find them annoying. She then does monologue at me a bit. She wouldn’t tell me if she was upset, she would want me to guess.

Coming at the other side from the men’s perspective, I’m not trying to be mean.

I like the way people are blaming you though they’ve never met you .

No specific answer though, OP, as I don’t believe there is one. Just because Agnes found happiness with Jim who she met at a bus stop, a golfing holiday, or an Osmonds convention means absolutely nothing. They’re not you.

If I were you I’d just go about doing what I wanted and if you meet someone fine, if not, fine also. I guess you could continue with some online dating if you like it. Some people enjoy it. Though I found it grim and not good for my self-esteem or sense of happiness.

Because of that I need to see that the other person definitely wants to hear what I have to say before I say anything that isn't quite short.

This is validation isn’t it?
This is the crux of it IMO. I’m not a psychologist. You won’t offer anything until you see proof someone wants it. They don’t understand this at all. Most people wouldn’t know this. I think the concept that people have to ‘win’ you emotionally is a difficult concept. They tell you something, you tell them something in exchange. Men aren’t going to dig and dig into your psyche to earn information they wouldn’t know this is what you need.

@TrinketsPearls

I’m not really old fashioned enough to believe women are from Venus and men are from Mars. That they are an unevolved species and women are more emotionally superior

You can’t change others but you can change yourself. Maybe focus on reducing your needs so that you will be compatible with a greater number of men.

I found mine in the middle of a muddy field in northants.

I'm going to suggest that 10 years and 150 men and none of them good enough, sounds like you may have exceptionally high expectations which quite frankly would be off putting to me.

Have you thought about settling down with a cat?

OP, they think you are great because you are attentive to them, to their needs - because you have good social skills - they are happy having their egos attended to - the most likely explanation being that they are really just interested in themselves.

Yes, I'm absolutely aware of this and always have been but I think most men are predominantly interested in themselves because they're socialised to think of themselves before others (there's a ton of gender relations research on this).

If a man is really interested in you, ie there is something about you which touches him, he will want to get to know you. Really. It is as simple as that.

I don't think it is. When I end relationships most men express surprise that I feel they don't know me. They tend to think that we've become very close and that they do know me very well.

If it happens you will feel it. You don't want someone who just has good social skills - you want someone who really likes you and who wants to get to know you. Someone who notices things about you which most people don't notice.

Well yes, obviously the person I choose to be with has to really like me as well as having the skills but multiple men have fallen in love with me, have expressed the desire to spend the rest of their life with me, have said they were devastated when it's ended. And it's still not enough for them to want to get to know me. How much more do they have to like me before they want to get to know me?

And is it not a chicken and egg situation to some degree? How can they know if they will really like you before they've put the effort into getting to know you a little?

Are you afraid that any man you to have a relationship with will turn out to be like your father - talking and talking at you and never asking anything about you?

It's not so much that I'm afraid that's what will happen - it's what always does happen.

I have considered that this is may be my issue but every time I read sociological research about marriages, relationships, patriarchy, male privilege and feminism, it does say fairly consistently that most men simply make poor partners and that most women report significant unhappiness in their relationships with men. Hence why they divorce them at twice the rate in the UK and four times the rate in the US and do worse in most indicators of well being than single women. Although when they say that single women are happier I think it sometimes just means "less miserable".

I'm not doubting that there are people who manage to be happy without these things but I don't think it's most people.

Gawd, couple of dates, if you like him shag him and see where it goes from there? When did it all get so bloody complicated??

I find the majority of men are 'selective' with emotional intelligent and it's extremely frustrating! They can suck the energy out of you but when it's time for the balance they're all out.

I do believe emotional intelligence is taught/learned but it's gender selective, my understanding is women are more emotional able then men. I find men are more black and white (to the point) when it comes to a discussion about others but elborate about ones self and their "shitty day".

you sound fun.

i think these 'skills' are subjective, soft traits and if you are so rigid in your expectations you are making it very hard for yourself.

I’m intrigued as to why you feel these poor sods don’t “know you”? What depths of your personality are you concealing and why?