Where can I find a man with exceptional relationship skills?

[changeling82]

I'm 38 and have been online dating now for over 10 years. In that time I've met around 150 men and chatted with countless more but in my experience, the vast majority simply do not have the relationship skills needed to make a satisfying and happy relationship viable. This has also been my experience with the men I've met in real life. They're all curiously lacking in the required skills.

I recently had a look to see if there had been any studies done that had found a massive imbalance in relationship skills between men and women and lo and behold there's a mountain of stuff that more or less confirms that my experiences are typical of most women's. In fact, one study that I read recently more or less said that only a tiny number of women ever find fulfillment and contentment in heterosexual relationships with men and that these women were with men who were described as "exceptional". This is because men are socialised to do vastly less emotion work than women despite high levels of emotion work being the key to making your partner happy in a relationship. In fact, single, childless women almost always come out as happier than their married counterparts even when they admit to being desperately lonely and stigmatised on account of not having a partner. It's all just so depressing as this tallies with my experiences. I'm depressed and lonely but know I would simply be more depressed and more lonely in a typical relationship.

So I need to work out how to go about finding exceptional men in significant quantities (as when you find one you're not necessarily going to be mutually attracted or compatible). I read that only 1 in 10 books on relationship skills are read by men but how could I go about finding these men who are at least interested in relationships and open to learning? And does anyone know anywhere where men with good relationship skills might be likely to hang out online?

I really want to have children and not end up hating the person I have them with. All suggestions would be incredibly welcome!

And to make it even more confusing, ime the latter will often try to convince you they're the former when you try to pick them up on things that have hurt you.

For info I am a man and have been married for 35 years.

I would say, based on my one relationship experience, that the only box you need to tick is an openess to change.

Openness to change refers to an individual's level of acceptance and conscious awareness of the possibility that change may be needed across a range of situations and scenarios, together with the appetite or drive to enact that change.

If you have this then all of the boxes you may need ticking could be met.....in time

"If only men were more like me."

That's essentially what you're saying, isn't it, OP?

I stopped despairing about men who 'weren't good enough' when I stopped looking for what I thought I wanted.

Men are generally different. Some are arses; many are not. But mostly they're simply different.

Yes, I'm absolutely aware of this and always have been but I think most men are predominantly interested in themselves because they're socialised to think of themselves before others (there's a ton of gender relations research on this) Yes, this is true.and it is what it is. At the moment, in our culture, it is what it is. It doesn't change the fact that if a man is interested, he is interested, and if he isn't, he isn't.

I don't think it is. When I end relationships most men express surprise that I feel they don't know me. They tend to think that we've become very close and that they do know me very well I am not sure why you are listening to them though. Yes, they might have thought all that. They were wrong, as you have said yourself.

Well yes, obviously the person I choose to be with has to really like me as well as having the skills but multiple men have fallen in love with me I have to tell you, multiple men have said they are in love with me and the majority were not in love with me. Just because they say they are does not mean they are. The handful of men who were in love with me were interested, cared deeply. How much more do they have to like me before they want to get to know me? The answer is more, they have to like you more.

And is it not a chicken and egg situation to some degree? How can they know if they will really like you before they've put the effort into getting to know you a little? If they really like you they will make the effort. It isn't so much chicken and egg, more of a game of tennis - one of you serves and whether the other returns the ball and both continue to do so is a choice, each time.

My boyfriend doesn't do the things you mention very well either, I would agree. But I love him and accept that we are different people with different things to offer, and that men and women are often different too. I tell him my stuff and point out when he hasn't responded or supported me well, and he is usually apologetic and cares. I am pretty sure I am not perfect either, so...!
Still, having him in my life makes me far happier than being on my own. Perhaps you should lower your expectations and focus on the good bits in a relationship instead. Or just don't bother, if you think being single is better for you.

I agree with vemvet and lots of other posters too. It might also help you to go out with men as friends not in a dating situation, for a bit OP - form your own ideas about what it is all about, rather than just relying research.

Interesting thread. I agree with a lot of what you say OP and I think we're quite similar as I'm also very research-focused. & I was also single most of my life and dated A LOT of shitty men before I randomly found DH (who has the qualities you refer to, as well as ticking my other boxes).

I don't think there's a specific place to look for these emotionally intelligent men, dating is a numbers game really. Unfortunately time is not on your side if you want children so you really need to up your efforts - how about speed dating? You'd be able to tell within a 5 minute date whether they have good basic social skills and whether you fancy each other.

If I was your age and I really wanted a child I would use a sperm donor or adopt. Already having a child will not put the right man off when you meet him. If you rush into something and have a child with them and it doesn’t work out you then have to deal with sharing custody and not seeing your child as much and not having control over how they are looked after. You can read many threads on here about this.

@daspater Why shouldn't she see herself as a prize to be won! Every women should because of their own unqiness and ability to know what they want! She clearly knows what she wants and has that wouderful skill of "awareness" but yet told to go to therapy because her expactations aren't "right" that actually she is the problem-confusing 🤔

Fair play to her for knowing her own mind, knowing what she wants! Women have been told for too long- how to think, how to dress and what to put up with. Society has lead us to believe that if she challenges this then there is something wrong with her! Hell no!

Why are you lead to believe to stay away from therapists? The therapist (I know) tend to know an awful about themselves because they have taking time to explore who they are and what they want out of life to then, past it forward to their clients. But also they acknowledge change as a positive attribute. The therapist I know are very clued in individuals.

Being a prize to be won is part of the old fashioned dating standards along with that god awful Marilyn Monroe quote about ‘loving me at my worst’

You are special and worthy, but you are not an object that a man must compete for and show his worth. This is an awfully unhealthy unbalanced dynamic.

Two people meet, they unlock emotional intimacy over time and consider whether they are compatible

Yy @menora. If you see yourself as a 'prize' you'll attract the type of man that's highly competitive and likes 'winning things'. Not the kind of empathic man you're looking for in all likelihood! (I speak from bitter experience).

I met someone very emotionally literate - on POF of all places.

When we met he wasn’t at all.

However, after many years of ups and downs, a major bereavement, a couple of self-help books and quite a lot of counselling, he is now very proficient at talking about feelings, asking the right questions and putting in the work to make sure we have a happy life.

He’s not perfect, as none of us are, and it sometimes takes an hour or two for the dust to settle on an argument and for him to understand what I need from him when I’m down or exhausted or feeing overwhelmed.

But he is aware of his unhelpful reactions and checks himself when he notices it.

The down side of someone who is well versed in therapy and self help talk is that they can also use it against you. When I’m upset and he challenges me with “is that real, or is that something you’re telling yourself?” or “you need to calm your chimp” it makes me want to punch him in the face .

So be careful what you wish for. The perfect man doesn’t exist. The best you can hope for is someone whose imperfections don’t make you want to murder him on a too regular basis

I think you're trying to find a ready made prefect relationship but I just don't think it works like that. You say you're looking for the perfect man, but he doesn't exist, you need to find someone you're compatible with and you two together will develop a working relationship, you need to get to know someone really well to know how they're feeling, what they need etc, you can't find that in an online conversation or one or two dates. What's the longest relationship you've been in? By all means bin the bad ones, some make that clear early on I'm sure, but if you're getting rid of someone because you haven't got to where you want quickly enough you are cutting your nose off to spite your face.

Relationships evolve, you get to know each other, you make mistakes and learn from them, you ditch the ones who don't evolve with you but those that do, those that learn the relationship skills with YOU that YOUR relationship requires, those are the keepers. But you won't find that out after a few dates, it takes years.

Relationships evolve, you get to know each other, you make mistakes and learn from them, you ditch the ones who don't evolve with you but those that do, those that learn the relationship skills with YOU that YOUR relationship requires, those are the keepers. But you won't find that out after a few dates, it takes years.

This rings so true. In the early days of my relationship I genuinely considered walking away because I didn’t think DP had it in him to be caring and supportive in the way I need. I remember crying about something (I missed my mum who I lost before I met him) and him being completely at a loss saying ‘I don’t know what you want me to do’. So I told him, clearly and exactly what I needed him to do. Like “DP when I’m crying because I miss my mum I need you to give me a hug, say ‘I know you do and it’s really shit’ and then when I’ve calmed down do something nice like make me a cuppa or bring me chocolate’. Same with other things. But he’s had to show me what he needs too.

We’re going through an anxious/stressful time at the moment (wedding in a few days, early pregnancy with some bleeding and worries) and honestly I couldn’t have wished for a more supportive partner who has had my back through the whole thing, done and said the ‘right thing’ if not every time then most of them, and has completely lived up to the agreement we’ve made to always be on each other’s team.

Maybe it should have been obvious what he needed to do in the early days, there were certainly times when I was completely baffled by his inability to just ‘be normal’ as I thought of it. Maybe I shouldn’t have ‘had’ to spell things out for him but I’m bloody glad I did because we are where we are now. He’ll still get it wrong plenty no doubt, and I will too, but I hope we keep working on it and learning together.

I'm very experienced with relationships and dating and I tend to agree. As I get older I find it more and more tiresome. It's fallout from hundreds, nah thousands! of years of gender imbalance.

But I think the OP needs a better strategy of dealing with it. You can't go into a date expecting men to tick these boxes or fail. Some men may be incapable of these levels of awareness, but are good guys non the less.
To be looking for a therapist type to date has to be the worst idea ever! What an earth makes the OP think a man who understands emotional ques will be careful with your being? Christ no!

My advice would be:

Do not try and 'educate' them
Do not have expectations, and....
Do not do more than your share of emotional work (just dump them if they prove to be selfish)
Look at what you are offering: Are you fun to be with - for example?
Refuse to play the mother role.
Make quick and swift judgments and move on
Stop overthinking it. Judge a fledging relationship on how they make you 'feel'. Short intermittent texts making you feel 'less than??' Dump them. No questions, no analysing.

And above all - don't be afraid to be alone.

I’m a man. At risk of blowing my own trumpet, in the dying days of my marriage our marriage counsellor (a woman) told me I was unusually emotionally intelligent for a man and this was quite a rare thing. In fact she had high hopes for us saving our marriage because of it!

Unfortunately my wife still felt she’d “changed” too much since we married and had got infatuated with an unemployed guy who’s interests were mainly football and computer games. The archetypal “bloke” in other words. She saw his emotional silence as mysterious and as someone she could rescue, I think.

I mean, I think he was a nice enough guy and they’re apparently very happy together, albeit dating for over a year now in secret. But I’ll be honest if, since then, I don’t see emotional intelligence as something necessarily attractive in a man. My Dad was hopeless at it but my parents are still together after decades. My mum told me recently that although she found him frustrating, in hindsight she appreciated his more simple mindset tended to shake her out of her own ruminations.

So yeah... it’s (apparently) what I am but I’m not really sure it’s necessarily done me - or my past partners - any good.

@bluebella4
told to go to therapy because her expactations aren't "right" that actually she is the problem
No-one has told OP to go to therapy. I suggested she might try therapy to get another perspective on why things haven't worked out so far. You are the one reading that and thinking that means she is the problem in her relationships; that idea is in your head, not mine. I was thinking more of things like looking into why she takes this unusual approach which she reports as having cut down the number of potential suitors to almost zero - the point about her father is interesting, and discussing it would probably help - or simply to help with the depression and loneliness that she mentioned in her OP.

I've tried therapy, found it very helpful, and recommend it to anyone who seems to be stuck and unable to go forward. Sure, you can discuss stuff with your friends, or on Mumsnet, but you don't want to bore your friends (the therapist is paid to listen to the tiny details week after week!) and therapists are trained to help.

I’ve done therapy it’s not an insult

It’s not people being cruel to suggest that people look introspectively at their own choices and actions and mindset. Myself and many others see OP has possibly high self esteem, which is good, but has become negative towards relationships and men which isn’t conducive to finding a loving lasting relationship

@tippletopple But I’ll be honest if, since then, I don’t see emotional intelligence as something necessarily attractive in a man Yes it is! It isn't the only thing that is important. But in the right relationship emotional intelligence is a really good thing - less grief, less drama, less unhappiness.

My top of the list criteria are:
Loving
Lovely
Kind to everyone

@ravenmum Yes, someone has told her to get to therapy.
I actually don't think she has a problem, as I've said I think she knows what she wants and I notice others agreeing with her idea of men. She is right to decide who is suitable and who isnt. Why should she settle for any less?!

I whole heartly believe in therapy and I do believe there doesn't actually need to be a problem to go.
But I believe that should be a choice of that person, not people pshyco analysing her everyword when she is very clearly self-aware an knows her own mind.

She knows her own mind but has a problem and we are pointing out that the way to unlock that problem might be to reframe it with therapy.

Anyhoo. Has OP flounced?

I actually don't think she has a problem,

She has a problem in that she wants her situation to be different - she wants a relationship and children. If what she's doing right now isn't getting her where she wants to be isn't it right to suggest ways that she could try to get what she wants?

Basically if she always does what she's always done she'll always get what she's always got.

The answer to her question can’t just lie with ‘yep I’m afraid you are doomed. All men are socially inadequate.’

What use is it to come on and give hugs and flowers, that is just venting and story sharing. It’s not productive advice from experienced women as she has actually received

I think it's VERY subjective and hard to quantify. Who dictates what makes a good man?

My DH is extremely emotionally intelligent, romantic, helpful, proactive, hardworking, passionate and I met him online ... Yet he and his ex wife detested each other and were historically awful together, and she ran off with his hideous, smelly, lazy best mate. Not everyone is perfect for everyone. 🤔

I actually don't think she has a problem

OP: "I'm depressed and lonely ... All suggestions would be incredibly welcome!"

So far OP has been very gracious even relatively cheeky suggestions. I am pretty sure that yes, she does know her own mind, and doesn't need anyone on this thread telling other posters what suggestions are OK and what not.