Where can I find a man with exceptional relationship skills?

[changeling82]

I'm 38 and have been online dating now for over 10 years. In that time I've met around 150 men and chatted with countless more but in my experience, the vast majority simply do not have the relationship skills needed to make a satisfying and happy relationship viable. This has also been my experience with the men I've met in real life. They're all curiously lacking in the required skills.

I recently had a look to see if there had been any studies done that had found a massive imbalance in relationship skills between men and women and lo and behold there's a mountain of stuff that more or less confirms that my experiences are typical of most women's. In fact, one study that I read recently more or less said that only a tiny number of women ever find fulfillment and contentment in heterosexual relationships with men and that these women were with men who were described as "exceptional". This is because men are socialised to do vastly less emotion work than women despite high levels of emotion work being the key to making your partner happy in a relationship. In fact, single, childless women almost always come out as happier than their married counterparts even when they admit to being desperately lonely and stigmatised on account of not having a partner. It's all just so depressing as this tallies with my experiences. I'm depressed and lonely but know I would simply be more depressed and more lonely in a typical relationship.

So I need to work out how to go about finding exceptional men in significant quantities (as when you find one you're not necessarily going to be mutually attracted or compatible). I read that only 1 in 10 books on relationship skills are read by men but how could I go about finding these men who are at least interested in relationships and open to learning? And does anyone know anywhere where men with good relationship skills might be likely to hang out online?

I really want to have children and not end up hating the person I have them with. All suggestions would be incredibly welcome!

Could it possibly be that they don’t spot your unassuming modesty?

I completely agree with so much of what you are saying. And yet. There's something about the way you are putting it all. The certainty of the conclusions you draw from the research base and the suspicious convenience of the fact that it's not to do with you, it's all to do with the fact that they don't "present as exceptional".
Sure, I will validate your theory. Yes men probably aren't as good at that stuff, as a class, overall. For the reasons you mention- not socialised to develop those skills.

But there are ways to get the better ones, and those ways are all about the subtle, unconscious dance we perform when signalling what we want from a mate. If your father is a monologist, you probably have really good inbuilt ways of dealing with that even to the point of being specifically good at managing the egos of these kinds of men.

You will be asking for emotional space and attention with your words, but signalling in countless other subconscious ways that you are ok in relationships where you don't get it. Then, all of a sudden, there you are again- with some bloke yapping on with no clue that he is not meeting your needs.

Another point to make is that because of the socialization men have around emotions, some of the ones who make a special study of being "good with relationships" can be weird power players. Therapists & psychologists & artists in particular, imho!

Go for a kind nice engineer or computer scientist or someone who doesn't know much about feelings and let him grow with you. You'll find that miscarriages, illlness, redundancy, death of parents and the like will shake up both your and his communications styles. It'll be ok.

Many just don't think that maybe their partner needs empathy and reflective responses. Many (men) just want to offload (their own crap) then move on.

@Fweakout

I’m with you on this. Just don’t like the way it is coming across. Also I am quite taken aback by how much in-depth research is being done into why essentially most men are inferior emotionally. But it can’t possibly be that OP has almost unreachable emotional needs

Are you writing in character? Getting Eleanor Oliphant vibes from your posts.

I don't disagree with you that women are socialised to do much more emotional labour than men and don't bring the same sense of entitlement into relationships. I blame the patriarchy.

Oh and me and many of my friends are therapists and psychologists-we're probably not that much more clued up about this shit than anyone else!

"Because of that I need to see that the other person definitely wants to hear what I have to say before I say anything that isn't quite short.

This is validation isn’t it?"

Isn't it just basic consideration for other people? Checking that you're not going to spend the next 2 or 3 minutes talking about something that they might be interested in? This works with most women.

This is the crux of it IMO. I’m not a psychologist. You won’t offer anything until you see proof someone wants it. They don’t understand this at all. Most people wouldn’t know this. I think the concept that people have to ‘win’ you emotionally is a difficult concept. They tell you something, you tell them something in exchange. Men aren’t going to dig and dig into your psyche to earn information they wouldn’t know this is what you need.

It's less about digging into my psyche though and more just about equality of effort (not that I wouldn't love someone to do the former but it's not my main complaint). An understanding that if someone makes an effort on your behalf, in terms of asking about you and your life then you return that effort by reciprocating the interest shown - in any way so that one person isn't doing all the work and getting completely drained by having to carry the conversation. You don't have to be interested in any specific thing (although you should want to be trying to find out more about the other person) but you do have to show an interest in something. Most of my female friends understand this and I have loads of fantastic funny, interesting conversations with them as a result. I don't think it's unreasonable to want that to be part of my romantic relationship because I can't see what else I'd get from spending time with a man other than sex.

I would also say that I did made it very clear what I wanted in all of my early relationships and it was always ignored. I used to be really clear with men that I need to feel that they're interested in who I am as a person and I need to feel that our conversations are balanced, i.e. that we both get roughly the same amount of attention in that they ask me as much about my life as I do about theirs and I'm not carrying every conversation because that's draining. I've asked bluntly for them to ask me more questions and I've pointed out that the reasons that they enjoy talking to me so much is because I'm actively showing an interest in who they are as people and I've asked for that back. They all just ignored me and we just kept on with the one sided conversations until I dumped them, cue much upset on their part. I do also volunteer information even when it isn't asked for but there's a limit to how much you can talk about something without some expression of interest from the other person.

I gave up on the strategy of trying to communicate my needs to men when I started OLD and tried to find men that had the skills to meet them to begin with but there are just so few of them. I have written on my profile that I'm looking for someone inquisitive but they just write email essays to me about how inquisitive they are without ever actually asking anything . If it was people in general it would be different but I know so many women who have these skills. I have the kinds of conversations that make me feel good about myself with other women all the time. I don't think I'm being unreasonable in thinking these are learnable and that men should want to learn them but they don't think they should have to because they are getting everything they need.

Op - I get where you are coming from and agree that lots of men have really crap social skills. Lots are pretty good thought, so don't give up. And for what it's worth, one of my exs was a counsellor and asked lots of questions. He was also a complete twat with massive issues and probably a personality disorder, so asking questions is not necessarily the most important quality in a partner.

The certainty of the conclusions you draw from the research base and the suspicious convenience of the fact that it's not to do with you, it's all to do with the fact that they don't "present as exceptional"

But there has been so much research in this area that some things are certain. Men have been shown in all sorts of studies by all sorts of people to do far less emotion work in relationships. And research also shows that successful relationships are found to be based on high levels of emotion work from both people. And people, mostly women, have been shown to experience high levels of emotional distress when men do not reciprocate with the emotion work that they get from women. I know most people aren't aware of this research but it's a very well documented dynamic - there's no convenience that it fits my experience perfectly. I can just see what's being written about in real life every time or almost every time I interact with a man. But I've found men who aren't like this and would just really love to find more. I don't see why that's such an odd thing to so many people. If you know exactly what makes you happy and what makes you miserable, why wouldn't you put every effort in to avoiding the misery and finding the happiness?

I agree with you OP, I haven't met one in 57 years and have now given up. I had my lovely son as a single parent. i love living alone and have no need of a partner, my cat is better company than any man I ever had.
I don't hate men, I have a lot of men friends but I couldn't live with any of them because even the best don't "see" things like mess or my distress.
more of my friends are now having children alone, I know 3 or 4 at least who haven'rt found a man who they think is a good enough role model for their child.
Maybe we are just unlucky I don't know but I have high standards and I haven't met anyone yet who meets them.

He was also a complete twat with massive issues and probably a personality disorder, so asking questions is not necessarily the most important quality in a partner.

That I'm looking for someone kind and fun is a given! But I have way more fun with people who ask fun questions :)

I’m with you on this. Just don’t like the way it is coming across. Also I am quite taken aback by how much in-depth research is being done into why essentially most men are inferior emotionally. But it can’t possibly be that OP has almost unreachable emotional needs

I didn't do any of this research myself, just read about it . It was very easy to find as so much has been written. Wifework is a good starting point and all the research by the Gottman institute. Those books described almost every relationship I've ever been in. Men are not "inferior emotionally". I don't believe in pink and blue brains. It's socialisation that causes these issues.

Being light-hearted OP but l think what you are looking for has not come off the assembly line as yet!!

madcatladyforever thank you! And to the others who agree with me, even if they think I'm Eleanor Oliphant!

Jingers5 and yet I have come so close several times in the past! .

That's sad in some ways madcatlady but also happy that you have a good life without a man. Research actually suggests you are in the happiest group in society (older single women specifically). Just wish I had the temperament to look after a cat. I'm better at looking after men and yet cat care skills would probably benefit me more .

Back to your original question, where do you find men who read relationship books and have a deep vested interest in the emotional connection of relationships and have exceptional relationship skills:

Firstly please stop reading these books and research. All it is doing is validating your feelings of disappointment and rejection. It is not helping you. It’s ok, you are validated here. You are right. A lot of men are awful at dating and relationships and who wants to be their mother? Not me either

Secondly yes arrange some therapy. I really think you need to stop looking back on everything in this gloomy way, and also at your gloomy future. We all have bad/rubbish relationships that didn’t work out but they didn’t just happen to us, we were part of them too. If you choose to stay with someone who is wrong for you then that is partly down to you too, you have choices.

Thirdly I think you need to work out in some kind of therapy what you would like from a partner aside from this validation. You say you are lonely and depressed and you talk a lot about how happy many women are alone but you are clearly not one of those women and that isn’t what you want. It is slightly worrying that the men you got this ideal validation from had some severe flaws such as alcoholism which is one of the most selfish and draining addictions on a relationship.

Fourth I think you need to try to make some platonic Male friends. I think spending time with men on a friendship level would help you a lot

No one can tell you where and when you will meet this exceptional man - there is no secret club. Women probably do compromise in some areas. You do really have to keep on keeping on dating and joining hobbies and socialising if you want it to happen. It is a numbers game

I honestly think this is an unhealthy discussion for women in lots of ways. A lot of women come here who are being abused and you will be reading the worst parts of peoples lives, and you don’t always get to read about how many people have happy content lives because they aren’t looking for support or advice.

we all know about patriarchy and Male privilege and poor socialisation - unless we never read the news or have any life experience - but you can’t let the actions of some men in the world cast almost all men in the same way. A real connection of personalities and evolving intimacy is a real thing

For example, my ex and father of my children and I had no such connection even after nearly 10 years, but I see he has a much better nicer healthier one with his partner now. I was the wrong partner and she is a better match. He’s nicer to her and more interested in everything about her. It doesn’t mean he is naturally inept at emotions or connections but he wasn’t good at it with me because we were not a good fit.

I’ve had amazing and healthy emotional connections with male friends, partners, family members and colleagues in my life, they aren’t romantic. I’ve also had some terrible ones with both males and females! I’ve had some shit friendships with women that have gone the same way, with me doing all the work and them picking and choosing when they show any interest in me. It is not just a male trait at all

Canada. Based on my circle I met many attentive, well rounded men who did their fair share. Unfortunately I was married to an Englishman at the time (still am) so couldn’t nab one myself.

I would imagine that you would be a difficult woman to have a relationship with ,by the sound of it. Do all the men have to go through an interview process with you, and present their Cv's, and any other personal credentials.

At least your post has made me laugh, so maybe you are a little bit amusing though.

My DH was brought up in a big family of females. I think that helped.

Do you think there could be an element of confirmation bias going on?

I don't think you're wrong btw and I have also read the research. And I believe it to be well conducted and useful, especially Gottman Institute.

But a mixture of what other posters are saying is too. Some of these exceptional men are like that when you meet them. Some are not but through life experiences they change - as do women. If we agree that it's socialisation that's causes the communication problems, then it stands to reason that there are men out there with good potential to understand these things, but they've not had the opportunity to learn how yet.

One thing I've noticed is that how a man is in bed says a lot. If he's selfish in bed, he's not going to be fundamentally interested in what you have to say elsewhere. If he takes the time to ask what you like, tries to put your sexual pleasure before his so that you both are satisfied, it's a good sign. Not cast iron, but shows he's got the skills and humility to ask.

So maybe go on a hunt for the best sexual partner

But definitely don't settle for someone who you don't love. Life's too short for that. Doesn't have to be love from day 1, but if you're talking about marriage, it would be utterly crazy to marry someone you didn't love because they had good conversation. And you know, if you're willing to do that, the empathic good talkers will sense it instinctually and back off.

Hey OP your thread prompted my first post, from the 'other side'. Since recent break up of what I thought was a great relationship, I've done a fair bit of reading and talked to a great councillor, to make sense of what happened. This has certainly opened my eyes to factors/ emotional skills that are really important in a relationship.

Maybe these skills and the balance needed in a strong relationship are natural for some guys (suspect not many), but I guess many are oblivious to the wealth of relationship knowledge that is out there, unless they have cause to go find out.......

But it did make me wonder why this education couldn't be a joint experience..... rather than just hoping the 'right one' comes along?

@KarenSmith123 .....probably a lot less effort, with guaranteed satisfaction 😄

Given your age, desire to have DC, and negative experiences dating, is going it alone in seeking to become a parent an option you could afford financially?