Where can I find a man with exceptional relationship skills?

[changeling82]

I'm 38 and have been online dating now for over 10 years. In that time I've met around 150 men and chatted with countless more but in my experience, the vast majority simply do not have the relationship skills needed to make a satisfying and happy relationship viable. This has also been my experience with the men I've met in real life. They're all curiously lacking in the required skills.

I recently had a look to see if there had been any studies done that had found a massive imbalance in relationship skills between men and women and lo and behold there's a mountain of stuff that more or less confirms that my experiences are typical of most women's. In fact, one study that I read recently more or less said that only a tiny number of women ever find fulfillment and contentment in heterosexual relationships with men and that these women were with men who were described as "exceptional". This is because men are socialised to do vastly less emotion work than women despite high levels of emotion work being the key to making your partner happy in a relationship. In fact, single, childless women almost always come out as happier than their married counterparts even when they admit to being desperately lonely and stigmatised on account of not having a partner. It's all just so depressing as this tallies with my experiences. I'm depressed and lonely but know I would simply be more depressed and more lonely in a typical relationship.

So I need to work out how to go about finding exceptional men in significant quantities (as when you find one you're not necessarily going to be mutually attracted or compatible). I read that only 1 in 10 books on relationship skills are read by men but how could I go about finding these men who are at least interested in relationships and open to learning? And does anyone know anywhere where men with good relationship skills might be likely to hang out online?

I really want to have children and not end up hating the person I have them with. All suggestions would be incredibly welcome!

OK, you queried me on the research - you're right, it is real research & you can draw conclusions from it. (Though yes confirmation bias ahem as pp said).

But as @Menora says, so what? This model of the world isn't helping you.

And you responded to the part where I challenged the research but did you also reflect on your own behaviour in relationships? Partners can be idiots but we can also self sabotage in so many waya by choosing the wrong 'uns.

I've known a good few male therapists and they were no great shakes as partners, not a single of them.

I think it's a really good question.

I was listening to Tracy Thorn on Desert Island Discs. She and her musical partner in Everything But The Girl, Ben Watt, have been together and worked together since the year dot and although they've faced challenges externally in terms of his health, their relationship sounds rock solid and they are still incredibly happy together - best friends and romantic partners. The interviewer asked her what their secret was and she said she just felt incredibly lucky to have got it right first time. Reading between the lines it sounds like the deeply fulfilling friendship underpins everything else - so his emotional skills must be fairly equal to hers.

That would be my advice OP - follow your true interests and make lots of new male friends who share that interest. If one of those equal friendships develops into something more you'll have a firm foundation.

The relationship i had that was most like what TT describes came from studying philosophy and meeting someone on my course who thought as deeply about things as i did. If anything he was far more emotionally attuned than i was at that stage.

I find you very interesting and would enjoy talking to you as I am an analytical person too. The last thing I want to do in a way is write a negative post because in many ways I admire the fact that you are trying to ensure you find someone who is emotionally intelligent and fulfils you. However, I would say be careful because both myself and my best friend met men who were initially incredibly attentive and interested in what we had to say. My partner went out of his way to get inside my head. It was like he could read my mind most of the time and it swept me off my feet. We had long, deep, emotional chats and I opened up to him about everything. Fast forward a few years and we are both in emotionally abusive relationships with controlling and manipulative men. We have both had children so it is hard to leave. So I suppose what I am saying is you never really know. I think I would actually choose someone a bit simpler, who was less in touch with his emotions next time as my partner is ridiculously over sensitive on top of everything else. I wish you all the best but it is a bit of a lottery as not everyone is what they seem.

Have a same sex relationship and have children using a sperm donor then. Seems the obvious answer to me.

I do think too many people go looking for relationships expecting far too much. I have been with my DH for a long time. Our relationship has evolved in that time. We met when we were young and neither of us went in with any expectations of children, marriage etc. I think people put too much pressure on their relationship to be perfect, when it never will be perfect.

Also talking about your research and statistics, research has shown women in same sex relationships have the same rates of separation/divorce as women in heterosexual relationships. So women aren't happy in any kind of relationship really. It's not just about men.

OP has said she is heterosexual and isn’t attracted to women.

If she is financially well off seeking to become a parent alone could be an option.

I think you need to change your name to Mary Poppins as you sound practically perfect in every way.

There's a common denominator here and here's a clue - it's not every man you have dated OP.

I think these years of being single have given you way too much time to overanalyze to the point of you wanting nothing but perfection, which doesn't exist straight away.

It takes teamwork and understanding of one another, which you can't tell on a first date. People are nervous, on their best behaviour etc., - not you of course - you are an amazing first date - obvs.

I think that's where having a firm friendship first, getting to know him in a low pressure group environment and seeing him in a wide variety of contexts helps @Mummadeeze.

The thing about abusive men is they can only keep up the nice guy facade for relatively short bursts and in certain conditions. If you can gradually build up a 360 picture of him more generally it puts you in a position of strength - especially if you know the red flags to look out for.

That 'getting inside your head' thing is a well known tactic of abusers and is talked about on the Freedom Programme. A man who strikes a balance between getting to know you and showing you who he really is, is a much better bet.

Yeah, I have an incredibly empathetic, kind and interesting partner but the male entitlement still pops up in unexpected ways.

Reading your posts op it comes across as you really don't like men very much. That must come across in any relationship that you embark on. There's also something that I can't quite put my finger on - it seems as though you are seeking soft skills in a partner but you are doing it in such a cold, logical, studious way. Maybe you just aren't attractive to men that have these soft skills?

You keep saying that you want someone who knows you, who will listen to you, who will almost act like a therapist to you but none of that really happens in the early days of dating. I'm trying to think back to the early days with my now husband - we talked about interests sure but it was mostly about just having fun and going out doing things. We didn't spend hours and hours having deep and meaningful conversations. Sometimes they happened but it was organic in how it developed. That intimacy grew over time and as someone else said, it's as a result of our shared experiences and hard times. He does know me now, and I him. We have our own emotional shorthand because we've been through some really tough times in our 28 years together. Did we have it a year or two into our relationship? No, but we both saw something in the other that meant we were willing to take the chance together. You keep saying that you are looking for this exceptional man but are you an exceptional woman? I'd argue that none of us are exceptional human beings. We all have our flaws.

Interestingly you saw one of the few men who had this emotional intelligence also turned out to be an alcoholic. Really, how good a partner could he have been then? Your criteria seems somewhat skewed if an alcoholic turned out to be your ideal.partner, no?

In short, it feels like you are trying to find a partner with your head when actually I think we find partners with our hearts.

Surely the main problem women have is following their hearts too frequently and not listening to their heads enough? I think it has to be a combination of both employed, personally. He has to 'feel right' not because of any back story the OP might have in her childhood where she's unconsciously looking for someone who reminds her of one or both parents, (which if can be disastrous if you've had any ACE) but also on a rational level where you allow your head to ask "is this person actually enhancing my life or detracting from it? And am i adding to or subtracting from his life?"

Tbf I find people telling me about 'their day' in the evening a massive turn off. We keep work and home life separate. I very rarely feel the need to talk to my partner about work, and vice versa.

It has to be both yes
But this comes across that it is all head no heart

I’ve been on 3 dates in the last 6 weeks.
Date 1: attractive but looked older than his photos. He talked about himself and talked over me I ended the date and didn’t see him again

Date 2: didn’t talk about himself much at all and felt like he was hiding things from me. Was not much fun but seemed nice. I didn’t see him again due to the hiding something

Date 3: very open and communicative. Not my type physically but a lot of fun and I’m seeing him again. It could fizzle out

I am not looking for a husband and father. I can see how the pressure to look for this can make you into what comes across as ‘fussy’. Because the idea of being with someone for 30 years is scary

Rufflecrow good advice there. My partner was very secretive which should have been a red flag. He knew me but I didn’t know him.

OP unlike many I really understand what you mean! The sheer number of dates I or my female friends have been on where the guy couldn’t have answered the simplest of quizzes about us at the end, e.g. ‘where is she from?’ ‘What does she do?’ ‘Tell me any one thing she likes or dislikes’. If it wasn’t so upsetting and dehumanising it would be very funny.

I recommend you try to filter earlier. Put up some interesting pictures of yourself on your profile if you’re online dating - you doing a hobby maybe or somewhere weird- and see if he asks (properly) about it. If seem to have a healthy interest in you before meeting, see if the date feels like a proper two way street. If not then move on! Honestly the only way is by ignoring or sieving out the weird men who aren’t interested in others.

But there are many nice and empathetic men, thinking of them as exceptional won’t help. If anything they are as much the norm as the other kind or probably more so. It’s just the weird ones tend to be Overrepresented in the single world for obvious reasons.

You are over thinking things. OLD encourages us to be ultra picky, filtering on minor characteristics rather than going on gut feeling. I, for a few weeks, was using old like a shopping list ... all the "perfect match" men were horrible! I then just went out on a limb and messaged a guy because I liked where he lived and we now are plotting our future together! (I admit there were things other than his postcode that made me message him but it worked for me, just need to sort out my divorce paperwork!)

Ps @changeling82

Yes my new man can pick up on those relationship things you mention - the fact he had a 20 year marriage before he met me was something I was attracted to, meant he had staying power!

As you like your research so much, I would strongly recommend the book "The Myth of Mars and Venus: Do Men and Women Really Speak Different Languages?" by Deborah Cameron. It is a very intellligently written book by someone who knows how statistics are used and misused. The title is a little misleading: it should say "the MYTH of Mars and Venus", as the author shows how men and women actually think very similarly, in a manner that is almost ... dare I say it ... human.

Still assuming that this is a legit thread, I would also wonder if you are dismissing potential suitors at a very early stage based on your preconceptions of what an "exceptional" man might look like, and accidentally filtering out the good ones. If I'd been deliberately looking for a super-understanding man I'd probably have filtered out my current squeeze due to his many past relationships. Turns out they have had the same effect as a dozen sisters, in your book.

Hmm. My DH is a wonderful man, with a number of qualities that I don‘t have. And he is endlessly loving and kind, and inspiringly smart.

But the qualities you delineate are quite verbal - he‘s not always the talk-y kind. Maybe some relate to metacognition (thinking about thinking). If this is the type you go for, the minority of man who are on counselling will be into that. Psychology is very broad, but yes you get trained in reflection on the professional routes. Is that definitely what you want though? What’s wrong with integrity and being a good shag?

but also on a rational level where you allow your head to ask "is this person actually enhancing my life or detracting from it? And am i adding to or subtracting from his life?"

Of course. But can you know this after 1 or 2 dates? I don't think so, excepting of course the absolute utter disaster dates.

The op just comes across as viewing it like a job interview or science experiment. Where's the romance, the passion? Of course I suppose you don't have to have those things it's just that I think an empathic man who is great at the soft skills is also likely to want these things and not be so attracted to a clinical, logical type person.

@StVincent

No one is actually disputing that this is an issue women have come across - but I wouldn’t even go on a date with a man who had not already asked me those things in the first place! How are women going on dates with men who just say ‘hi’ and nothing much else unless you are basing it on looks alone

OP you sound like massively hard work. I'm not saying your research is wrong, but you simply can't apply that level of textbook analysis to your own human relationships and expect it to work. You're expecting failure from the off. You've educated yourself about red flags, put the books down and concentrate on having fun with men you can be friends with.

Also- frankly- the whole "deep conversations" thing is just plain scary. As a PP said, these things happen organically. That's what makes the knowledge so precious. The gradually unfolding information given up to each other as time goes on- big secrets, little embarrassments. My husband and I were friends for a long time before we realised we were in love, and I'd say developing that deeper knowledge and having those important conversations is an on going process, and one we are ever improving on. It doesn't happen all at once, and nor would I want it to. We have busy lives, frankly if my husband was always sitting around wanting me to ask deep questions about his emotions, nothing would ever get done. I find it more rewarding when that information is volunteered, frankly. Otherwise it feels a little rude and brutal, like you're pulling someone's private thoughts and feelings right out of them, when maybe they'd rather you didn't.

Also- and I know this isn't going to please you, but I'm being honest. You're clearly an extremely intelligent woman, but, emotionally and romantically, I'm getting "protagonist of a Young Adult paranormal romance novel" vibes from you. You want a man who will basically stare into your eyes and spend most of his time talking about Really Important Things and your relationship. In real life, you're almost forty, presumably the men you meet are around the same age. People are mature, they have jobs, hobbies, families. I would hazard a guess that they expect you to be confident and mature enough to state clearly what you want, rather laying some sort of emotional maze for them, one that they don't even know exists, with the Real You as some sort of prize in the centre.

Relax. Stop wrapping yourself in layers, like an onion, and be more open. Have a good time with a wide variety of pleasant men. For all your exceptional men, somehow I doubt you've met anyone who was just nice and uncomplicated - I mean, one of your paragons was an alcoholic? Something about your thinking isn't working. I could spot a problem drinker miles away by the time I was in my mid twenties,and wouldn't have got any closer to begin with. Stop seeing yourself as some sort of prize to be won and focus on making genuine human connections with people, based on warmth and liking

Oh and avoid therapists. They're notoriously difficult to have relationships with, or so I've always been led to believe. The fact you even think they're your best option is questionable

My DP had pretty crap ‘relationship skills’ to start with, to the point I did (internally) wonder to myself whether he was neurotypical (one of his parents, an uncle and a sibling are not). It’s just been a case of clear communication and talking to each other, and learning from the other too. I don’t expect him to meet all my emotional needs and I know that if I need something specific from him I need to communicate that rather than expecting him to just ‘know’. We have a great relationship now, I wouldn’t swap it for the world, but we both had a lot to learn I think when we got together.

I think that's the difference between someone who is a little rough around the edges and has trouble expressing what they feel but has their heart in the right place, and someone who is bad at relationships because they honestly lack empathy and the ability to care about others' feelings @aliasgrape. Knowing the difference is reallt important.