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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Huge argument with my sister

169 replies

Christmasslippers · 30/11/2019 16:38

This will be a long post so I apologise in advance. I decided to post in this section rather than AIBU as I can’t be doing with all the vultures and I thought I may get a more grown up response on here as I have seen first hand how some of these threads go down.

I have recently had a huge falling out with my sister and I don’t know how/if we’re going to survive it. Bit of a backstory-
We have never seen eye to eye, since we were kids really. We’ve tried to make an effort to get along for the sake of our mum as it makes her happy. I’m 32, married with no children, we both work full time in relatively well paid jobs and we plan to have children in the next couple of years. I have always worked full time since leaving college at 18 whereas my sister has bounced between working part time and being on benefits.

She currently works part time in a care home and her partner works full time for a conservatory installation company. They have 3 children together and rent a 3 bed house from the housing association. They have always had quite a rocky relationship and have been on and off over the years but things have been much better since the youngest was born two years ago. Now this is the issue:

She claims to be a single parent living alone with just the 3 kids. This is absolutely not the case as he has lived with them since the youngest was born. Because of her lies, she receives quite a fair bit in benefits that she is not entitled to, amounting to approx £1,200 a month along with her wages of around £600.
He earns around £1,300 after tax so they are bringing in at least 3k a month.
From the £1,200 she gets in benefits £400 is deducted to go towards her rent, she pays the other £200. She also receives a council tax reduction as she is supposedly “single”. Apart from that she doesn’t have many bills except car finance (both, he has a 4 year old BMW and she has a brand new Kia). They also obviously have to pay towards clothing and feeding the kids. They don’t have any child care costs as on the two days she is working my mum looks after the youngest child, other two are in school full time.

They’ve been able to get away with this as he listed his mum’s address as his current residence. Whenever he gives her money towards the bills and kids he pays in cash and he also parks his car a bit further down the road from the house incase any of the neighbours suspect anything. They also don’t talk about their situation to anyone except family, even her best friend doesn’t know the set up. They are very clever and know exactly how to con the system. We have spoken about the set up many times and I have been honest and expressed my disagreement with it. She’s always said she knows what she’s doing is wrong and that she worries in case she gets caught, but still continues to do it to this very day. I will add, she is not doing it to make ends meet either, It is purely down to greed and wanting to go on lovely holidays and have nice cars. She’s always said she wouldn’t be able to do any of those things if she didn’t fraudulently claim, which is simply not the truth. She would still be able to have those things, but she’d have to save up for them just like most people. I actually helped her a few months ago fill in a benefit calculator online to see how much she would be entitled to if she declared her partner living there and they were still eligible for help, albeit a lot less than what she is getting now (around £700 difference but still entitled to £500 a month) and she said this is why she won’t tell the truth. They would still be bringing in just over 2k a month and most of the rent would still be paid. She also has the option to work more hours, as my mum is retired and has said multiple times she would be happy to have the youngest more. My sister chooses not to accept this offer and just continues to work two days a week and fraudulently claim instead. She doesn’t realise how lucky she is, in regards to child care. Most people have to pay nursery and child minder fees whereas she gets it for free.

Things came to a head when we were at our mums house on Tuesday night. Sister told us she was planning on booking Disney land Florida next year for the oldest child’s birthday and again jokingly said she wouldn’t be able to do it if it wasn’t for benefits. At this point, I lost my patience and we really got into it, ending up in a screaming match in fact, I’m just glad the kids weren’t there to see it all. Again I was honest and said I thought it was disgusting and that she had no morals. I told her I would understand if she was doing it to make ends meet (I appreciate it still doesn’t make it right) but that just wasn’t the case. She was doing it to have luxuries.

She said that I don’t realise how lucky I am because we have a mortgage and that there stuck renting. Yes, I have a mortgage, simply because we saved up for years to buy a house and went without holidays and other luxuries for quite a few years. We had to compromise, which I’m sure is what most people have to do. Unless your a bloody billionaire, you can’t have everything right? This isn’t my sisters attitude at all, she wants everything and she’ll do whatever she can to have it. She said that most of the money she was getting she was putting towards a mortgage. I told her I didn’t agree with it and that the benefits system isn’t there to support her buying a house and going on nice holidays. Like everyone else she would need to compromise on things and maybe not have so many holidays or go to bloody Disney Land. She ended up storming out of the house and we haven’t spoken since.

I spoke to my mum yesterday and she said that I should apologise. I really don’t think I’ve done anything wrong, but been honest. She didn’t like what she heard but it’s only the truth. My husband supports me wholeheartedly as he’s never liked my sister anyway. I’m prepared to go on with the rest of my life not speaking to her, but it does make me sad that we‘re not close.
I don’t think she will stop claiming anytime soon as she knows none of us would ever report her. I really don’t agree with it and I’m not sure if I’ll be able to get past it. It makes it worse because she jokes about it and thinks it’s funny. When I spoke to my mum she said that it wasn’t my sisters fault as they make it so easy for her to fraudulently claim and that most people would do the same thing. Yes, I agree they do make it easy for people to fraudulently claim and they should monitor these people more. I’ve seen first hand that all it takes is for the partner to change his address and hey presto your definitely a single parent.
I understand the DWP just take these people at face value but just because it’s easy to do it doesn’t mean you should. I think my mum is torn and just wants to make us both happy.

As I said above, I know how most of these threads turn out, particularly the one this morning and I’m sure most people will ask how I know all of this information. She is my sister, she’s not just someone I have on Facebook and I have seen all the proof and had the endless chats. How do we move on from this?

OP posts:
Onacleardayyoucansee · 30/11/2019 16:41

Who is your loyalty to?
The system or your sister?

Try loving her instead of judging her and you might enjoy things more.

fit4more · 30/11/2019 16:46

Well firstly, you’re definitely not apologising! She’s at fault and defrauding the system, I want to tell you to report her but I know that would be hypocritical because I had the same scenario with my sister and I didn’t report. I have little to do with my sister though because she’s so bloody selfish. I’m not sure how you have a relationship with somebody doing this. I wouldn’t remain friends with somebody doing it. She’s never going to stop so I guess you just have to bury your head in the sand and try and forget her

Christmasslippers · 30/11/2019 16:47

My loyalty is to my sister and I do love her, which is why I'm sad we're not close.

I think it's silly to say "don't judge her" when ultimately what she's doing is wrong. If she ever gets reported and they find out, she will only have herself to blame. I don't want to see her end up in prison because of this that's why I've encouraged her to stop.

OP posts:
HeatedDryer · 30/11/2019 16:48

I'd report her. Sod loyalty to your sister, the system is there to help those in need, not to fund trips to DisneylandHmm

duvetaddict · 30/11/2019 16:50

I'd struggle to be around someone knowing they were doing this. Maybe you have to agree not to discuss it as she is not going to admit she's wrong.

Tonz · 30/11/2019 16:50

While I think fraudently claiming is really wrong this is ur sister. It doesn’t affect u and urs so best just leave it they will probably get caught eventually anyway

Winterdaysarehere · 30/11/2019 16:54

Imo your justifiable resentmemt will increase when you have dc and continue to live an honest life.
No way apologise. Your dm is enabling her to be a benefit cheat by taking her side.
Wonder if she knows dwp employ staff to stalk fb for apparently hard up claimants enjoying lavish holidays/lp at their weddings?
My exh reported me for having a flash car and obviously 'living beyond my means'. Dwp visited and were satisfied my dm had indeed bought me the car.
They so check op.
It may be they suspect her already.
Patience is indeed a virtue.

Christmasslippers · 30/11/2019 16:54

I have thought about reporting her many times, as horrible as it sounds but that was back when she first started doing it.

If I reported her now I'm not sure what would happen to her as it's been going on for at least 3-4 years and they have claimed a lot. I think off the top of my head it has to be at least 30-40k.

My mum would never forgive me if I did. I've encouraged her in the past to stop before she gets caught, as I'm sure one day she will. I think it's stupid to risk going to prison for an extra few hundred pounds a month but I know so many people do.

OP posts:
Hazardexhausted · 30/11/2019 16:55
Biscuit
hazandduck · 30/11/2019 16:55

Your comments about the free childcare don’t take in to account maybe your sister doesn’t want to put upon your mum more than necessary? My in-laws have DD whilst I work two days they regularly say they would have her for more days if I ever needed it but she is exhausting and I feel guilty doing that to them. You are looking at this as someone who doesn’t have children so probably can’t see it from her perspective (it is horrible feeling a burden or that your kids are a burden.) Also if I were to work an extra day my tax would increase and would make working not worth it! Perhaps your sister is in that position too? If the relationship with her partner has been rocky she’s probably had a rough few years with 3 small kids, I don’t agree with her abusing the system at all but I would be so upset if my sister turned on me and judged me like this.

Sandals19 · 30/11/2019 17:00

What a bizarre first response.

So loyalty to someone ignoring and smiling among at the fact they're benefit fraudsters.

Would it be the same if they're fraudsters of another sort?

Real pickle for you op.

She's a bit of a parasite and had low integrity, you don't.

I wouldn't apologise, you may have to accept to won't have a close relationship with her and just pass yourself for family sake.you can choose your friends but ...

Sandals19 · 30/11/2019 17:00

*involves ignoring and smiling along at the fact they're benefits fraudsters.

Sandals19 · 30/11/2019 17:01

Oh and btw the "system" is all of our fucking money.

Andbreatheout · 30/11/2019 17:06

People tend to get caught out at some point. I wouldn't want to be in your sisters shoes. People on an anonymous forum are going to judge and tell you you're right, don't apologise, report etc. But i disagree, she's your sister and you don't have to agree with her choices but she has three of your nieces/nephews and I'm sorry to say but if she does face jail time for fraud youll need to be there to support those kids and being on decent terms will help with that.

I'll be completely honest, if it were my sister (I have a few and we've had blazing rows where we've not spoken for a year at one point!) I'd meet with her and say I won't apologise for my moral compass but I love you and I'll always be there to pick up the pieces when she does inevitably get caught out. I'd put a line in the sand where she knows my views and I know hers and we've move on somehow. I know some will be outraged but your loyalty really does lie with your family, you'll be sisters forever and hopefully you'll rub off on those kids a little more by showing them there's another way to what their parents are doing. You can't change her, you can't force her but you can continue to support her and do things like show her the calculator like you did, help her with a budget and outgoings if it'd help ease her mind that she can still save. I don't agree with benefit fraud, i just think you can help educate her and keep that relationship. Good luck it must be such a hard position to be in.

user1497997754 · 30/11/2019 17:08

I would report her she is taking the piss and breaking the law she is commuting fraud I bloody hate working and paying tax for scrummy people lime this to be honedt

Beautiful3 · 30/11/2019 17:09

She is stealing from us all.you ought to report her anonymously. I reported my brother and I'm so glad I did.

ladybee28 · 30/11/2019 17:13

What is it you want to happen, OP?

Given that you can't force her to change (nor is it your job to make her change), what do you want?

Because in the coldest of terms, you have 2 options:

  1. Report her
  2. Don't report her, and stop making her wrong for it.

By not reporting her you're just as complicit as your mum, and honestly it sounds a bit like there's some payoff for you in not reporting her, because then you get the feel-good factor that comes with being the 'righteous one'. And I REALLY don't mean that in a nasty way –it's perfectly human.

So what outcome do you want?

Pinkbonbon · 30/11/2019 17:18

Tell her you'll give her two months to stop the defrauding and if she continues to claim after that, you will report her.

You could always report annon and say you have recently seen a man living in the house and so when you heard she was claiming you were shocked. Then she can just say he is a new guy on the scene when they confront her so her benefits will be stopped.

Of course it is risky.
But give her two months notice to stop. And follow through if she doesn't. Family is important, hence giving her a chance. But your integrity...that should also be important to you.

Fatted · 30/11/2019 17:19

I think you're right OP. Don't apologise. If your sister stole £30k-£40k from anywhere or anyone else, would you think any differently? Because that's what is what she is doing, stealing.

userxx · 30/11/2019 17:19

What a cheeky bitch, I'd report here.

HollowTalk · 30/11/2019 17:23

You've given a hell of a lot of detail here, particularly with her partner's job.

I wouldn't dob in my sister but it would really annoy me that she was doing it. It's totally selfish and immoral.

loveyoutothemoon · 30/11/2019 17:27

She would go to prison surely for that! And so she should. I would probably say to her, stop the claims or I'll report.

MyNewBearTotoro · 30/11/2019 17:30

You can’t judge her if you won’t report her. If you genuinely think what she’s doing is wrong then you would report her. It’s easy to take a moral high ground when it’s not your life, just like it’s easy for us to take the moral high ground and point out you’re wrong not to report her.

She’s claiming fraudulently which is obviously morally wrong, but you’re being morally wrong not to report her too. You could stop this but you don’t want to because you’re worried about the consequences making your life and relationships harder. She could stop it but doesn’t want to because the consequences would make her life harder. She’s wrong but so are you to sit back and do nothing so you can hardly take a moral high ground that she’s not willing to put a stop to it when neither are you.

You are complicit and enabling her crime which makes you just as much in the wrong in my eyes.

Mammajay · 30/11/2019 17:30

My experience of relatives claiming to be single parents whilst living with partners is that they don't get caught. One family enjoyed a holiday in Cuba last year.

Onacleardayyoucansee · 30/11/2019 17:32

Be aware that this may plunge the children into poverty, stress the family out and destroy your/her relationships.

The fallout will harm both the just and the unjust.

I would rather live in the knowledge that someone has a dishonest claim than the knowledge that i reported someone and the attendant consequences of that.

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