Huge argument with my sister

[Christmasslippers]

This will be a long post so I apologise in advance. I decided to post in this section rather than AIBU as I can’t be doing with all the vultures and I thought I may get a more grown up response on here as I have seen first hand how some of these threads go down.

I have recently had a huge falling out with my sister and I don’t know how/if we’re going to survive it. Bit of a backstory-
We have never seen eye to eye, since we were kids really. We’ve tried to make an effort to get along for the sake of our mum as it makes her happy. I’m 32, married with no children, we both work full time in relatively well paid jobs and we plan to have children in the next couple of years. I have always worked full time since leaving college at 18 whereas my sister has bounced between working part time and being on benefits.

She currently works part time in a care home and her partner works full time for a conservatory installation company. They have 3 children together and rent a 3 bed house from the housing association. They have always had quite a rocky relationship and have been on and off over the years but things have been much better since the youngest was born two years ago. Now this is the issue:

She claims to be a single parent living alone with just the 3 kids. This is absolutely not the case as he has lived with them since the youngest was born. Because of her lies, she receives quite a fair bit in benefits that she is not entitled to, amounting to approx £1,200 a month along with her wages of around £600.
He earns around £1,300 after tax so they are bringing in at least 3k a month.
From the £1,200 she gets in benefits £400 is deducted to go towards her rent, she pays the other £200. She also receives a council tax reduction as she is supposedly “single”. Apart from that she doesn’t have many bills except car finance (both, he has a 4 year old BMW and she has a brand new Kia). They also obviously have to pay towards clothing and feeding the kids. They don’t have any child care costs as on the two days she is working my mum looks after the youngest child, other two are in school full time.

They’ve been able to get away with this as he listed his mum’s address as his current residence. Whenever he gives her money towards the bills and kids he pays in cash and he also parks his car a bit further down the road from the house incase any of the neighbours suspect anything. They also don’t talk about their situation to anyone except family, even her best friend doesn’t know the set up. They are very clever and know exactly how to con the system. We have spoken about the set up many times and I have been honest and expressed my disagreement with it. She’s always said she knows what she’s doing is wrong and that she worries in case she gets caught, but still continues to do it to this very day. I will add, she is not doing it to make ends meet either, It is purely down to greed and wanting to go on lovely holidays and have nice cars. She’s always said she wouldn’t be able to do any of those things if she didn’t fraudulently claim, which is simply not the truth. She would still be able to have those things, but she’d have to save up for them just like most people. I actually helped her a few months ago fill in a benefit calculator online to see how much she would be entitled to if she declared her partner living there and they were still eligible for help, albeit a lot less than what she is getting now (around £700 difference but still entitled to £500 a month) and she said this is why she won’t tell the truth. They would still be bringing in just over 2k a month and most of the rent would still be paid. She also has the option to work more hours, as my mum is retired and has said multiple times she would be happy to have the youngest more. My sister chooses not to accept this offer and just continues to work two days a week and fraudulently claim instead. She doesn’t realise how lucky she is, in regards to child care. Most people have to pay nursery and child minder fees whereas she gets it for free.

Things came to a head when we were at our mums house on Tuesday night. Sister told us she was planning on booking Disney land Florida next year for the oldest child’s birthday and again jokingly said she wouldn’t be able to do it if it wasn’t for benefits. At this point, I lost my patience and we really got into it, ending up in a screaming match in fact, I’m just glad the kids weren’t there to see it all. Again I was honest and said I thought it was disgusting and that she had no morals. I told her I would understand if she was doing it to make ends meet (I appreciate it still doesn’t make it right) but that just wasn’t the case. She was doing it to have luxuries.

She said that I don’t realise how lucky I am because we have a mortgage and that there stuck renting. Yes, I have a mortgage, simply because we saved up for years to buy a house and went without holidays and other luxuries for quite a few years. We had to compromise, which I’m sure is what most people have to do. Unless your a bloody billionaire, you can’t have everything right? This isn’t my sisters attitude at all, she wants everything and she’ll do whatever she can to have it. She said that most of the money she was getting she was putting towards a mortgage. I told her I didn’t agree with it and that the benefits system isn’t there to support her buying a house and going on nice holidays. Like everyone else she would need to compromise on things and maybe not have so many holidays or go to bloody Disney Land. She ended up storming out of the house and we haven’t spoken since.

I spoke to my mum yesterday and she said that I should apologise. I really don’t think I’ve done anything wrong, but been honest. She didn’t like what she heard but it’s only the truth. My husband supports me wholeheartedly as he’s never liked my sister anyway. I’m prepared to go on with the rest of my life not speaking to her, but it does make me sad that we‘re not close.
I don’t think she will stop claiming anytime soon as she knows none of us would ever report her. I really don’t agree with it and I’m not sure if I’ll be able to get past it. It makes it worse because she jokes about it and thinks it’s funny. When I spoke to my mum she said that it wasn’t my sisters fault as they make it so easy for her to fraudulently claim and that most people would do the same thing. Yes, I agree they do make it easy for people to fraudulently claim and they should monitor these people more. I’ve seen first hand that all it takes is for the partner to change his address and hey presto your definitely a single parent.
I understand the DWP just take these people at face value but just because it’s easy to do it doesn’t mean you should. I think my mum is torn and just wants to make us both happy.

As I said above, I know how most of these threads turn out, particularly the one this morning and I’m sure most people will ask how I know all of this information. She is my sister, she’s not just someone I have on Facebook and I have seen all the proof and had the endless chats. How do we move on from this?

As you say, you’re basically trying to keep your mum happy.
Well, you might not be able to. Your mum is already complicit in the theft/fraud/whatever she wants to call it. It’s a crime, whichever name you use.
You probably won’t report it, but I’d go grey rock on both your sister and your mum. You cannot continue a relationship with them knowing what you do. Your DH seems sensible, and is right. You’re married now, he’s your family too and when you eventually have DCs you will not want them growing up in a world where their relatives’ “normal” is this.

HollowTalk: I wouldn't dob in my sister but it would really annoy me that she was doing it. It's totally selfish and immoral.
.........
I agree and also agree that I wouldn't dob in my sister (if I had one) but then the only issues for which I would report someone would be some type of abuse and that would be to the police.

Of course you don't need to apologise, you've done nothing wrong. However you have said you love your sister so in your position I think I would just say, "Please let's leave that in the past and be friends again". That would almost certainly work.

I wouldn’t report my sibling. I would tell them exactly what I thought of their actions and make it clear I wanted the jokes about it to stop in my hearing.

Wow,that is complicated. It's easy for me to say I agree with you because as a single parent I feel that it is couples masquerading as single parents that give the genuine single parents a bad name. However. She is your sister and frustrating though it is, I would try not to judge her. I don't think you have to be close. But a bit of a cease fire.

This really pisses me off...im a single parent,i work,have a morgage and have childcare to pay every month..i am financially on my own and i have friends who fraudulently vlaim benefits. I say nothing nut inside it disgusts me, iv no problem with people who are entitled to benefits claiming them but the amount of married couples who go down this road is vast, its beyond me how they gey away with it. I struggle week to week to make ends meet and witness the people around me driving nice cars and having nice holidays! Its sickening but i live in hope karma will fix it!

She's still envious of YOU though. You have security, a ft job, a good wage, no dependants. You have done it all sensibly. And she has made herself very vulnerable. She can't go backwards and put the ground beneath her feet before she has kids now. If I were her, I'd be saving furiously. She's mad and she's not helping herself.

Maybe approach it from a different angle and tell her that you wish she had more security. Maybe that will soften things a bit. Try to encourage her to save a bit.

@Louise91417, as a single parent, I agree. I work now and was in receipt of just benefits for a while, feeling the FULL WEIGHT of society's judgement on me at the time!

The couples who pretend to be single get none of outsider's judgement (because they just look like a family doing well) and they get the benefits as well. So I agree with you.........

However, I also kind of feel sorry for women who have 3 kids and a pt job in a care home and a ''partner'' with whom they're renting and yet blowing money on disneyland. It seems to me that all of the priorities are about right now, there's no security. And I think the fight probably stems from OP's sister's jealousy that her sister (op) has not left herself so financially vulnerable.

I was in OP's sister's shoes once (except minus the benefit fraud) and I left to start again on my own which was very hard, but OP, if you can communicate to your sister that once you are on your own, you can make decisions that benefit you and your kids and your future.

Deep down, would your sister rather have the money it cost to go to Disney in a savings account? Or does it all feel to fragile and pointless for her to save?

What a horrible situation to be in. She clearly has no respect for you nor any of the hard working every day people (including her friends and family) who are unknowingly funding her greedy selfish extravagances.

She shows no remorse or guilt and continues to take take take what she can get. It's disgusting behaviour and I'd be ashamed to associate with anyone doing that. I'm not surprised you've fallen out and I certainly wouldn't be apologising.

I couldn't live with the knowledge that she was so blatantly stealing and defrauding and would have to report. It would eat me up otherwise and I wouldn't want to spend the rest of my days bigger and resentful.

Yes she'll feel the consequences of the law, but surely better now than a few more years down the line when the theft is even more substantial.

I'd definitely be reporting, without a doubt, but stay on hand to help pick up the pieces and help her get her life back in shape as needed afterwards. She's made it clear that she won't be taking those steps herself, even though you've given her every chance to do so.

I don't envy you your position but I do admire you not compromising on your principles.

You'll be doing her kids a favour in the long run. Growing up with an honest mum, living within the law, albeit a little less well off, is so much better for them than any number of dishonestly gained trips to Disneyland.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

@Louise91417
Im in the same posution as, you, but renting, and I say good luck to her.

The non stop graft, tired all the time, cant spend time with my children etc etc

The system doesnt work for the working poor who adhere to it.
Thats the problem here.

Bringing others down wont make my life any easier.

I wouldn't report her because of the permanent damage it would do to your family.
But I would tell her that no, you're not apologising for judging her actions (though I suppose you could apologise for it turning into a screaming match, if you want to buy a little bit of grace).
But I would remind her that though you won't report her, if someone else does, after this amount of time, it won't be a fine, it would be prison. And does she really want to be separated from her kids?

I wouldn't report her but I wouldn't apologise either

Apologies for the delay in responding I was sorting out dinner.

Mixed responses on here and I've taken them all on board. The reason why I gave so much information @HollowTalk is because you always get people on these sorts of threads saying that it must simply not be true and that the OP is a troll etc.

I understand that she must be envious of me because I have a mortgage and a good job but I still don't think she can use that as an excuse to fraudulently claim benefits. I only have those things because I've worked hard and saved up for years and not gone to Disney Land....

I agree with a pp that they don't know how to save money. It seems to burn a hole in their pocket, as soon as they get their wages/benefits it all goes on bills and then luxuries. I honestly don't know how she will save up for a mortgage.

I think their trying to keep up with the Joneses a bit. They see other people going on nice holidays and having nice cars and they want the same and there's nothing wrong with that but I don't think it should be at the cost of the tax payer. It's like me going into work and saying to my employer I'd worked 50hrs but only worked 40. (That's a rubbish example but you get my point)

I think your mum should be having a go at her not you. My mum would go mental at me...and my dad if they thought I was doing this! And I'm 42.

I actually think you do owe her an apology. You indicate that you exploded at her and were one half of a screaming match. That is not OK and you can offer an apology for that.

In terms of the fraud, I think you made your decision not to report a good long time ago. You feel conflicted about it but really if you were going to report it wouldn't you have already? I don't think you need to condone her behaviour, but that doesn't mean you have to shout at her and state globalisations such as she has 'no morals' (no morals about this yes, but does she have morals in any other way?).

She has put you in a tricky situation by making you complicit in her theft from more needy people and I think you have the right to be angry about that too. But I think you might also need to step back and think about why she is getting to you to the degree that you are rowing with her like you are teens again.

I say this BTW as someone with a very difficult relationship with my bossy and controlling older sister. She can be awful and say hideous cutting things. I am working on responding as an adult when she is behaving like a child. Not to be superior but because in 40 + years there has never been a time when getting into a row with her has ended up any way other than me feeling awful. And she is too sure of her own superiority to consider any other points of view, so there is also no point.

I agree @73Sunglasslover I do owe her an apology for shouting at her, we both looked ridiculous at the time and I think my mum was in complete shock watching us. Even though we don't really get on in general, we have never argued like that before.

I think because I've always bitten my tongue about the situation, my patience just wore thin when I heard her laughing about Disney Land but I know it doesn't justify me screaming at her. I feel like we need some time away from each other until we can have a conversation without shouting at each other

She’s stealing from a system that hasn’t enough to help those in need!
Report her.

I can see why people do this if dishonesty gets you Disneyland and telling the truth gets you food bank vouchers. Sometimes I wish my conscience wasn't so noisy, but I know if I lived a dishonest life I would be anxious all the time. It's a life not built on solid foundations, though. I fear it will all fall apart soon. I would want to patch things up and be there if it does all come tumbling down. Because I think that's what being a family means, being there for them whether you agree with them or not. You don't have to like their choices. Can you think of any redeemable qualities in your sister?

Stone her, OP. That is the biblical way of dealing with this sort of thing. Pick up that stone and throw it hard.

PLEESSEASSE report her!!

🤔 people like your sister are exactly what’s wrong with the system. Benefits are there as a last resort for people who need them to get by, not so liars can take fancy trips to Florida that 90% of hard working brits can’t afford

*PLEASEEEEE

things like this annoys me. Report her. Shes living on our hard earned money and giving people who genuinely need the help a bad name!!!

I have more sympathy for people who do a bit of cash in hand on the side, but not full blown fraud . I am aware how much of a difference it is. and my god i wish i could take my kids disney!!

I'll get right on that @Haffiana

As for everyone else, thank you for your input and helpful advice!

Stone her, OP. That is the biblical way of dealing with this sort of thing. Pick up that stone and throw it hard.

Yeah there was no benefits system in biblical times. If you didn't work, you didn't eat.

We pay a fifth of our taxable income to these c*&ts - and nearly half if we've managed to earn a reasonable amount.

Things like this break my heart, I have a mortgage and kids and I pay my bills, my husband and I work full time, pay for childcare and I would love to do lovely things like go to Disney, but that would be something that I would have to save for years for.
It's so unfair that she thinks this is ok behaviour. I honestly think if it was my sister I would report her. It would be hard to do but she's wrong on so many levels and she needs to stop.
What lesson is she teaching her children. When will she ever stop?
She should be ashamed of her behaviour but I suspect she's not.