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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Huge argument with my sister

169 replies

Christmasslippers · 30/11/2019 16:38

This will be a long post so I apologise in advance. I decided to post in this section rather than AIBU as I can’t be doing with all the vultures and I thought I may get a more grown up response on here as I have seen first hand how some of these threads go down.

I have recently had a huge falling out with my sister and I don’t know how/if we’re going to survive it. Bit of a backstory-
We have never seen eye to eye, since we were kids really. We’ve tried to make an effort to get along for the sake of our mum as it makes her happy. I’m 32, married with no children, we both work full time in relatively well paid jobs and we plan to have children in the next couple of years. I have always worked full time since leaving college at 18 whereas my sister has bounced between working part time and being on benefits.

She currently works part time in a care home and her partner works full time for a conservatory installation company. They have 3 children together and rent a 3 bed house from the housing association. They have always had quite a rocky relationship and have been on and off over the years but things have been much better since the youngest was born two years ago. Now this is the issue:

She claims to be a single parent living alone with just the 3 kids. This is absolutely not the case as he has lived with them since the youngest was born. Because of her lies, she receives quite a fair bit in benefits that she is not entitled to, amounting to approx £1,200 a month along with her wages of around £600.
He earns around £1,300 after tax so they are bringing in at least 3k a month.
From the £1,200 she gets in benefits £400 is deducted to go towards her rent, she pays the other £200. She also receives a council tax reduction as she is supposedly “single”. Apart from that she doesn’t have many bills except car finance (both, he has a 4 year old BMW and she has a brand new Kia). They also obviously have to pay towards clothing and feeding the kids. They don’t have any child care costs as on the two days she is working my mum looks after the youngest child, other two are in school full time.

They’ve been able to get away with this as he listed his mum’s address as his current residence. Whenever he gives her money towards the bills and kids he pays in cash and he also parks his car a bit further down the road from the house incase any of the neighbours suspect anything. They also don’t talk about their situation to anyone except family, even her best friend doesn’t know the set up. They are very clever and know exactly how to con the system. We have spoken about the set up many times and I have been honest and expressed my disagreement with it. She’s always said she knows what she’s doing is wrong and that she worries in case she gets caught, but still continues to do it to this very day. I will add, she is not doing it to make ends meet either, It is purely down to greed and wanting to go on lovely holidays and have nice cars. She’s always said she wouldn’t be able to do any of those things if she didn’t fraudulently claim, which is simply not the truth. She would still be able to have those things, but she’d have to save up for them just like most people. I actually helped her a few months ago fill in a benefit calculator online to see how much she would be entitled to if she declared her partner living there and they were still eligible for help, albeit a lot less than what she is getting now (around £700 difference but still entitled to £500 a month) and she said this is why she won’t tell the truth. They would still be bringing in just over 2k a month and most of the rent would still be paid. She also has the option to work more hours, as my mum is retired and has said multiple times she would be happy to have the youngest more. My sister chooses not to accept this offer and just continues to work two days a week and fraudulently claim instead. She doesn’t realise how lucky she is, in regards to child care. Most people have to pay nursery and child minder fees whereas she gets it for free.

Things came to a head when we were at our mums house on Tuesday night. Sister told us she was planning on booking Disney land Florida next year for the oldest child’s birthday and again jokingly said she wouldn’t be able to do it if it wasn’t for benefits. At this point, I lost my patience and we really got into it, ending up in a screaming match in fact, I’m just glad the kids weren’t there to see it all. Again I was honest and said I thought it was disgusting and that she had no morals. I told her I would understand if she was doing it to make ends meet (I appreciate it still doesn’t make it right) but that just wasn’t the case. She was doing it to have luxuries.

She said that I don’t realise how lucky I am because we have a mortgage and that there stuck renting. Yes, I have a mortgage, simply because we saved up for years to buy a house and went without holidays and other luxuries for quite a few years. We had to compromise, which I’m sure is what most people have to do. Unless your a bloody billionaire, you can’t have everything right? This isn’t my sisters attitude at all, she wants everything and she’ll do whatever she can to have it. She said that most of the money she was getting she was putting towards a mortgage. I told her I didn’t agree with it and that the benefits system isn’t there to support her buying a house and going on nice holidays. Like everyone else she would need to compromise on things and maybe not have so many holidays or go to bloody Disney Land. She ended up storming out of the house and we haven’t spoken since.

I spoke to my mum yesterday and she said that I should apologise. I really don’t think I’ve done anything wrong, but been honest. She didn’t like what she heard but it’s only the truth. My husband supports me wholeheartedly as he’s never liked my sister anyway. I’m prepared to go on with the rest of my life not speaking to her, but it does make me sad that we‘re not close.
I don’t think she will stop claiming anytime soon as she knows none of us would ever report her. I really don’t agree with it and I’m not sure if I’ll be able to get past it. It makes it worse because she jokes about it and thinks it’s funny. When I spoke to my mum she said that it wasn’t my sisters fault as they make it so easy for her to fraudulently claim and that most people would do the same thing. Yes, I agree they do make it easy for people to fraudulently claim and they should monitor these people more. I’ve seen first hand that all it takes is for the partner to change his address and hey presto your definitely a single parent.
I understand the DWP just take these people at face value but just because it’s easy to do it doesn’t mean you should. I think my mum is torn and just wants to make us both happy.

As I said above, I know how most of these threads turn out, particularly the one this morning and I’m sure most people will ask how I know all of this information. She is my sister, she’s not just someone I have on Facebook and I have seen all the proof and had the endless chats. How do we move on from this?

OP posts:
purplepalace · 01/12/2019 09:07

Your sister is a thief and committing fraud.

Of course you should report her.

KatherineJaneway · 01/12/2019 09:13

How do we move on from this?

If you won't report her, then the only way to move on is to not discuss the issue again and keep your mouth shut when she talks about it. She clearly doesn't give a shit about the morality of what she is doing and nothing you are going to say will change that.

PollyPelargonium52 · 01/12/2019 09:17

The DWP sends out random checks to single parent claimants asking for proof that nobody lives with them. So some are checked anyway.

Havaina · 01/12/2019 09:17

I would report her. I'm a Labour voter but threads like these do make me consider voting Tory.

Stooshie8 · 01/12/2019 09:24

I would flag up to your DM what the consequences could be. I would suggest that at sometime in the near future DSis makes her relationship with her DP official.
Having this hanging over me would make me pretty anxious. Who would go to jail - both of them?? It's a serious crime.
Eventually the DCs grow up and leave. She will then have to live on reduced benefits and without a good pension in old age. Also the DP is not in a good space if they split - how will he get access to the DCs? Risky business but her choice.

ADarkandStormyKnight · 01/12/2019 09:30

I'm a Labour voter but threads like these do make me consider voting Tory

Why? This is happening under a Tory government. What makes you think that voting the Tories in again will make any difference?

BlouseAndSkirt · 01/12/2019 09:37

I would not report her.
See my nephews / nieces watch their Mum go to prison?
See my sisters name in the paper?
Lose my relationship with my Mum for ever?

Because they will know, or lifelong suspect who it was.

Your Mum needs to have a good long think.

It would be best if your sister and her Dp could rethink this before booking Disney.

If she gets found out she will be liable to repay all the money, if she isn’t actually in prison she will be tagged and not allowed to go, kids devastated, etc,

How did so man people get caught up in this greedy consumerism? Expensive Cars, flash holidays? It depresses me, and will destroy people like your sister.

See if she can be reached by thinking about what she stands to lose.

People rarely change as a result of being judged and yelled at.

FantailsFly · 01/12/2019 09:37

I’m a Labour voter but threads like these do make me consider voting Tory.
There’s been a couple of these threads recently. I suspect this is what we’re supposed to think Hmm

WhoWants2Know · 01/12/2019 09:42

I'm curious as to how the cost of the sister's fraud would stack up against the cost of prosecution, imprisonment, and potential foster care.

As in, would "the system" potentially be even worse off if she's reported?

AIBanUemployee · 01/12/2019 09:53

I haven't got any advice but I fell out with a very long standing friend over a similar situation. She was on disability benefit but there was very little wrong with her. She used to boast terribly about what she could afford to buy and how much free time she had. I was working my arse off to make mortgage payments with very little disposable income. One day she explained just what benefits in terms of value she was receiving and it equated to the amount of tax I was paying. I just saw an unfairness particularly as she was also working (physically taxing work) in a family business earning extra cash tax free.

I would never have reported her but I did tell her how I felt about the situation and I've never heard from her since.

It's a difficult predicament OP.

PaterPower · 01/12/2019 10:24

“Imagine we all took that view to climate change. None of us would be bothering with recycling or energy saving at home etc”

And very few of the very wealthy bother with that at all; they still take obnoxious numbers of flights, often on private aircraft, whilst conspicuously consuming at every opportunity. If the Fail and it’s ilk applied the same kind of vitriol and shaming tactics to them, consistently, as they do to benefit cheats then they might start doing their bit.

Sandals19 · 01/12/2019 10:51

All this high drama about police, imprisonment, court, papers etc. ... If ops sister and dp have been careful to make sure there no record of him living there (as it sounds like they have) I doubt a report would even be "successful".

My sister and her dp did this, made sure he maintained (the appearance) of a separate address, made sure any money he paid into their household was cash etc

They were reported and it went nowhere.

MissChananderlerbong · 01/12/2019 10:54

I'm glad my tax (I dont earn much so it's not much) goes on BMWs and holidays to Florida.
I'd report her. It's not fair when people who really need it end up at food banks.

BlouseAndSkirt · 01/12/2019 10:54

“Imagine we all took that view to climate change. None of us would be bothering with recycling or energy saving at home etc”

Very very few of us do anything very significant, especially if it disadvantaged us.
Put out the recycling, yes, but get rid of the car / give up flying for holidays / give up endless new tech that relies on entire mountain ecosystems being destroyed for the minerals... not so much.

Onacleardayyoucansee · 01/12/2019 10:59

More is unclaimed than fraudulently claimed.
About 5 x more.
Tax evasion is higher also. But as its rich/resepectable people doing it (our betters) it is accepted. One rule for them, another for us.

Why are we taking lumps out of others, even our own blood sisters, instead of recognising the real problems.

Are you perfect OP?
No?
Work on you first and when you are all done, then start tackling your sister.

Perunatop · 01/12/2019 11:08

She is committing fraud which is a serious criminal offence. She will definitely regret it if caught and convicted, possible prison sentence and requirement to repay the money. Realistically all you can do is point this out to her or report her or ignore it. I don't think you need to apologise for what you said but perhaps apologise for the way you said it. Perhaps focus on being a good Aunt to the children rather than trying to get on with your sister.

StreetwiseHercules · 01/12/2019 11:18


More is unclaimed than fraudulently claimed.
About 5 x more.
Tax evasion is higher also. But as its rich/resepectable people doing it (our betters) it is accepted. One rule for them, another for us”

Don’t expect people to engage in this critical point. They always run away from it.

MissChananderlerbong · 01/12/2019 11:45

But ANY money given fraudulently is money that could be given to people that need it. Even I'd it's only a few million/hundred million, whatever, that could be a library that got shut, or someone moving up a waiting list. Every little helps

Botanica · 01/12/2019 12:04

Stealing from public purse, funded by all of us taxpayers, is criminal and wrong. Full stop.

It doesn't make a difference to me whether the perpetrator is rich or poor. It's still wrong and immoral either way.

Being at the lower earning end of the spectrum is not an excuse to trade in your moral compass.

It gives a bad name to all the thousands of decent honest hard working people out there who can manage to respect the law and not let selfish greed take over.

Confusedbeetle · 01/12/2019 12:13

You are absolutely right. She is stealing. It is no defence to say it is so easy. If she saw someone had left a purse on a bar would she take it? You owe he no apology and your mother should not defend her. I would not report her. I would tell her that I am not reporting her but that she deserves to be reported as what she is doing is wrong and taking money from people in need. We cannot afford the welfare bill as it is. I would have nothing more to do with her. This is not just a minor bit of claiming, its massive. She is a thief

Confusedbeetle · 01/12/2019 12:15

@streetwise, that sort of post is typical claptrap. None of your claims have any bearing on the fact that this woman is stealing. Unclaimed benefits is a red herring and not paying taxes is also wrong. Please consider the morals of this particular case only. keep your politics to yourself

MyNewBearTotoro · 01/12/2019 12:33

All the people saying you can’t report your own sister - in terms of crime where do you draw the line?

You wouldn’t report a family member for benefit fraud, what about stealing from the till of a local cornershop? Assault? Knife crime? Revenge porn? Drug dealing? Car theft? Rape? Child abuse? Would you give a false alibi if a family member was accused of a crime?

If you believe a crime is wrong then you should report anybody you know to be committing it, regardless of whether they are family or not. The only moral excuse for not reporting a crime is if you think the crime is wrongly unlawful (Eg: your family member is dealing cannabis but you believe drugs should be legalised) and don’t have a moral issue with it. If you think what somebody is doing is wrong but are willing to cover for them because they’re family then you’re equally in the wrong for being complicit in their crime. You can’t criticise somebody for committing fraud and at the same time be happy to ignore your duty to report the crime without being an obvious hypocrite.

PaterPower · 01/12/2019 12:39

@confusedbeetle
How can you separate politics from morals - on any matter, let alone this one? You either have a set of universally applied values (that you stick to) or you haven’t.

As things stand, in this country, you can steal money from the system and call it “tax efficient” and you’ll be patted on the back. Hell, you can rob the pensioners in your Company blind and nothing much will happen to you. Bung the ruling party a tiny percentage of the money you’ve “shielded” from the rest of your fellow citizens and you’ll even get something shiny from the Queen.

OTH, you can over-claim (intentionally or not - look at what’s happened with Universal Credit) a tiny fraction of what the rich get away with and the full force of the law will come down on you. You’ll be vilified, potentially imprisoned and fines will be applied on top (which you’ll never be able to pay back). If that means you and your kids go into emergency housing well, that’s your fault, eh?

Screw that. I’ll join the hang ‘em and flog ‘em Brigade when it starts on the richest first and works its way down, not whilst it only ever goes after the poor.

TitianaTitsling · 01/12/2019 12:41

Why are we taking lumps out of others, even our own blood sisters exactly- great question for OPs sister, why is she happy to take money she doesn't need and isn't entitled to when there are people in dire need?

PlinkPlink · 01/12/2019 12:54

This is wrong.

But it is her decision. She needs to know the consequences (if she doesn't already) and what risk that puts her children in.

If I were in your position, I would apologise for getting into an argument but you are just worried and find it morally wrong. Tell her the implications of her actions and then tell her, in order to avoid conflict in future, you want to hear nothing about what she's doing with her benefit money.

Do not stop talking to her, for God's sake. There are worse things to fall out over and heaven forbid something happened to either one of you, you'd regret not speaking.

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